Projects 1930 Chrysler CJ build (UK) ...

Hi,

Some of you may have seen my "Found this Old Chrysler..." thread which i started last month: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=678898



I'm now going to tie that off and start a true project thread as I felt that was like an extention of an introduction that had gone on long enough.

I'll admit, I'm new to working on these iconic American cars so, as I work through this build I'll be posting my progress as well as various things I am sketchy on. I figure I might as well utilise the resource of all your (you the HAMBers) knowledge as long as I'm welcome here.

So far with the thanks of the people on this forum as well as the AACA and p15-d24 forums (especially Rusty O'Toole, hkestes, drillmastertommy, Desotodav) the car has been identified as a 1930 Chrysler CJ Coupe. How many of these are still around? Rare or not? Some say it is but its hard to find information over this side of the pond. Also, someone on the AACA forum suggested the CJ stood for "Chrysler Junior" but then others disagreed. Well with or without the history I've made a start. You will also note, the mopar heads in here, that this is running a 1953 Plymouth 218 straight 6 only currently missing a starter motor.

However, HURRAH! I found a compatible starter motor in Kingsbury, California. Thats currently being shipped to me. As soon as I've got it, I'll turn her over and post a vid. In the meantime I've been assessing the rot and rust while having a closer look at the engine and running gear. These pics show the floor pan after I pulled the seats out:



Yeah there's day light shining through in places but I expected that. I'm actually really suprised that its in such good condition. This car has not been sitting in a bone dry desert, its been sitting outside in a damp and drizzly UK. The main point for rot was where the winding rear window allowed water down behind the front seats. I have to say I love the winding rear window though, I've never seen this before so its a real novelty to me:



Another funny moment from today was finding a lump of "filler" which in fact turned out to be a huge lump of cement! I reckon the guy who did it must've been repairing a wall at home and then thought he had some cement left over and needed to throw it somewhere:


I do have a few questions, first one is about the roof. Why oh why isn't the roof one solid sheet of steel? It's like the factory was preparing for a sunroof but threw in a piece of wood. Is this original? The coachwork/woodwork in it is the same style and age as the body so it must've been done in the Detroit plant?:


I also have a mechanical question. When I was looking at the gearbox it struck me that it looks ridiculously tiny for the 1953 Plymouth 218 its hooked up to. Can anyone confirm that this gearbox is completely wrong? If so, is it the original 1930 Chrysler engined gearbox?




There are some serial numbers on both sides:




Thanks for any info on these things and I'll be adding more to this thread as I go.

Cheers!

 

I usta hadda tail light for one of those...

 

Oh rub it in!! I know you did and you got a great price for it too!

 

Please update the other thread with the correct link, currently it goes to the login page. Lots of us were following your progress there and might not find this thread.

 

Trans looks correct ( I think, I'm far from an expert) but with the emergency brake handle adapted.

Those motors were only a little over 100hp so the transmission does not need to be big.

The roof is stock, stamping big sheet metal was not perfected then. Ford Model A's had similar roofs


Have you checked at the p15/d24 forum? That's where the experts on that motor hang out.

 

I don't believe that transmission is correct for that car for several reasons:
-There seems to be a flat sheet steel adapter plate between the trans and bellhousing.

-the handbrake toothed pawl gear is not bolted to the trans case, rather it has some homemade tin bent down from the top cover.

-there seems to be something wrong with both upper trans mounting bolts.

-the 6 digit part number on the trans case would/should be a 5 digit for 1930


The Roof:

Plywood was added, and is not original.

There originally were wooden slats going across the opening, then chicken wire, then a layer of batting, followed by the final layer of top material which was a black, grained, waterproof fabric, similar to a Model A Ford of that age.


The CJ is just a model designation. Chrysler Co, used single letters as well as two letters for various makes like: Model Q,U, 30U, PA, PB Plymouths. K, CK, for DeSoto, etc.

..and lastly, 3wLarry's tail light was too early for a CJ. Yours would have a light with a flat upper lens, with a circular beehive domed shaped lower lens. Chrome plated bezel.

 

Yeah I got the same post on that forum. I also figure if the gearbox is wrong I'd like to get something that would fit the engine better and sell the existing.

Isn't that strange! They could turn out curved fenders but a large flat piece of thin slightly curved steel was too difficult? I was thinking it was a primitive sunroof

 

Shipped in all the way accross the pond for more shipping cost than its worth... My starter motor fresh from Kingsbury, California!




Clean up and strip down planned for the weekend and a video of "waking the beast" to follow on the weekend with all being well!

 

dudford,

Make sure when you bolt up the starter that the teeth on the bendix and the teeth on the ring gear are compatible before putting power to it. If they don't mesh correctly you could break a tooth or worse.

Here is what I found when I swapped my 218 for a 230 as far as ring gear and bendix tooth count and size.

218 flywheel 146 teeth right at 15 inches in diameter.
218 starter 9 teeth at 3/8 inches tip to tip on adjacent teeth
218 starter gear is 1 1/4 inch diameter roughly

230 flywheel 172 teeth again 15 inches in diameter as best as I can measure it in the car.
230 starter 9 teeth at 5/16 inches tip to tip on adjacent teeth
230 starter gear is right at 1 inch diameter.

You can see the difference in bendix gear diameter between the two in this photo.

 

Looks like I got the right starter for the engine with 3/8ths tooth to tooth and 1 1/4" bendix diameter thanks hkestes.

I'm just a little confused by the gearbox. One of the mopar genius from p15-d24 identified my bizarre gearbox as one from a 1935 Dodge d2. Why would this be compatible? But at the same time why wouldn't it? Well i've yet to get it going so I will know what its like, fingers crossed, by Saturday.

Also I just came accross the "Wire Wheels only pic thread", excellent inspiration! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504985

 

The bolt pattern for the transmission to bellhousing were the same for the manual transmission used with the flathead through the end of produciton as far as I know. There were some differences in the input shaft length, but I think that was the only major difference on the mating of the transmission to the engine/bellhousing. I know that at least some of the input shafts can be swapped between transmissions to make them compatible to different engines.

Mopar did have a floor shift Over Drive transmission in the 1936-38 Chryslers/Desotos that you should be able to swap that would give you much better performance for highway (motorway) driving at a much reduced RPM level. You may have to do some shortening of the drive shaft you would just have to do some measuring. The hard part would be finding one of these units as they were only used for a couple of years before they went to the column shift. Here is a picture of one and as you can see it looks a lot like yours on the bellhousing end and shifter location.

 

What an awful day!

I require help, advice and counsel... would a hug be too much to ask?

Starter motor woes!

So some of you may be aware that I had purchased a 1953 Plymouth Starter that would be compatible with the flathead engine in my 1930 Chrysler. I waited weeks for it to arrive from California and had every intention of bringing the car back to life. Well it didn't go my way today.

I took the starter, placed it in the bellhousing mounting and... it didn't marry up! It appears that the body of the starter is too wide to sit in and sit flush with the engine block...


At first thought I had something wrong but I'm not sure that I do. The engine is definately a 1953 Plymouth 218 (block number p24) and the starter is definately the corresponding one for the engine.


So I've scratched my head, spoken at length with my Dad about it and rung various friends to ask for points of view.

Here's what I've cobbled together in my brain: There are two components at play, the engine and the bellhousing. I now think that the bellhousing is actually the original 1930 Chrysler CJ bellhouse. The reason I think this is that the original 1930 Chrysler engine was lacking a water jacket on the side of the starter motor therefore allowing tolerance to fit a starter closer to the block on the bell house mountings, see pic of 1930 Chrysler Block below:


My block below and starter placement:



I toyed with grinding the side off the starter to make it fit but I now realise that it would probably foul the electromagnetic properties of the starter.

Here's where i need the advice, should I now chop out the bellhousing, and fabricate my own so that the starter will mount correctly? Any other ideas, most welcome.

If I've overlooked something PLEASE PLEASE point it out to me!

 

I think it's time to look for other transmissions. A modern 5-speed perhaps.

Or maybe a mini-starter could be fitted with your new starter gear?

 

In looking again, would the starter gear work even if it fit? It seems the flywheel is near the middle of your hole but the starter would need to be mounted out further? I can't really see.

Maybe make a wooden piece the shape of your starter nose and see where it would need to sit & work back from there. There are some auto trans and various newer manual trans swaps people have worked out so maybe try to find those & see about starter measurements.

 

Yes your bell is original, or at least Chrysler family, and no newer than 1930. 1931 Ply went to remote mounted pedals off the frame, not the bell, so I'd bet Chrysler changed in 31 as well.


Looking at the dirt, grease, and aluminum corrosion?? on the engine, trans, and bell, makes it obvious it once was a running car with some sort of starter, not a failed swap that they could not find a starter for.


What are the white stains at the starter opening? Does it look like aluminum was bolted there? If so, maybe a non-mopar starter or an aluminum adapter was used?


You need to find out if the Plymouth four and six cylinder club is still in business. They just might know.

20 years ago, I met a guy who ran a later Mopar slant six in his 33 Dodge pickup. I don't recall if he used the stock 33 bell or what starter. But that gave me an idea. I wonder if the gear reduction starter from a slant six would work? I know they were aluminum at the mount. Could that be why it looks like aluminum corrosion there? The reduction starter would likely clear the block?, because the main starter body is offset.

 

When I bought the car there was no starter so that's where the confusion began. I'm 100% sure that the old timer I'd bought it from had something in there to start it but evidentally it was removed or destroyed before sale. F&J I think you're right in that it would have been somethig made of aluminium, though it also looks like whatever was in there was glued in with liquid metal too as it peels off. I've written a letter to the guy to ask a few questions so shall await the outcome of that, worst case scenario is I'll be ignored. Might have to door step him in that case but not an ideal situation.

For now I experimented with removing about 5/8" off the drive end bracket where it fouls the block in order to see how much i would have to shave off the length of the yoke.


Even with this it stil fouls the block and I'm concerned whether the starter would actually spin if I trimmed an extra 1/8" off. Its also very close to the Through Bolt fixing, the Commutator End Bracket would be significantly changed and I would need to reposition one of the Brushes.

Essentially It would end up that the block becomes a part of the starter in terms of being absorbed as part of the yolk. I'm not sure that I like this idea, in fact I know I dont... annoying!

So speaking to a friend last night it was suggested that I rebuild the bellhouse. He asked me a rhetroical question, "What is the bellhouse for?" to which my reply was, "To keep the **** out". I looked at the pictures this morning and am curious as to whether to butcher the existing or rebuild it in its entirety out of aluminium plate. I've cobbled this together below and am hoping for anybodies point of view:

So if I cut the drive end bracket bellhouse mounting and grind out a new position would it work?

The other option of course is... rip the Mopar kit out and throw an old Ford 24 stud V8 in there

 

I would not cut the bell just yet.

Put up some measurements of the bell bolt pattern, and the size of the large opening?

I do have a Mopar gear reduction starter here, but it is for a small block V8. I do not know if the slant six was different, but I can take a pic of it and check the pattern, count the drive teeth, etc.

 

A very elderly Mopar guy was just here, and he claims there was a much smaller diameter Mopar flathead 6 starter made by Prestolite.

He said he would look for one at his place, but there is so much stuff piled up, I don't know if he could find one.



He did say a slant six stater is the same as my V8 starter, so I could take some measurements if you want.

 

I'd try and find a later bellhousing and transmission that will work with the mill you have. You'll still be able to keep the flat-6, and not spend the associated cash in finding, adapting, and tuning a different motor entireley. You'll then have something to mount that starter to, and with a newer tranny, you'll have much more modern-road-friendly gearing. I'm sure that even in the UK, there should be some source of MoPar drivetrain stuff....

 

You won't find a starter to fit that combo of parts. Looks like the flywheel that was on the later engine stuffed in the old bell. The ring gear is out past the center of the starter hole, where the starter shaft should be. You need a smaller flywheel.

 

I wouldn't modify the existing bellhousing until I was sure the combination would be the final choice. After all, you don't even know the condition of the motor or trans yet. I would prime the carb, add fresh gas in the tank, check the timing, and jump start the motor with a push.

 

I am going to go against the voting here and say neither.

That old in line is probably too old to deal with. I would look for a newer six cylinder from the 50's and put that in with a four speed trans.

 

One thing to consider might be throwing in a later mopar flathead 6 and trans for cruising and keep the original motor in storage, that way if there is some major failure down the road at least you didn't loose your original drivetrain.

 

^ The OP said he has a 53 flathead in it right now.

 

Check out this ebay item - a prestolite mopar starter pricey at $250, but the picture may help. Apparently they do exist.

Also, see this Allpar.com page - there are other ideas out there, a smaller starter could perhaps be adapted to your existing bell without too much work.

 

[/IMG][/IMG][/IMG]Keeping your flat head could be worth it in the end...........

 

For sure keep it MoPar. The flatheads done right are real cool and the Early Hemi are of corse cool, but they cost alot to build. If you got money,like 3500. plus for the Hemi.

 

True, that is a great looking flattie! I can just about see the squeeze for space between the headers and steering column box, fine work! Right Hooker huh? Same as me. Its very much the direction I'd like to take mine. You and hkestes both have great looking engines, i also like that they aren't the same old black and silver you see on lots of Plymouths/Chryslers/Dodges. Chassis looks tight also. Awful lot of traverse front leaf spring suspension systems on cars of that era, Ford, but I see you have other which I'd love to see more of. Anymore pics, possibly email? PM me if thats cool.

I gotta make you right, they are expensive... and big... and requiring alot of work... Just need to focus now on "un-seizing" the engine, assess any damage and locate a compatible starter and get it running and acquire bolt on performance parts and... does it ever stop? No, no i dont think it does, does it?!

 

Over the weekend had a brief look at the car and asked a few questions on p15-d24 forum. Not really able to make any progress presently but the learning curve is pretty good.

The problem remains: Starter and Bellhouse... its almost getting boring

From the picture below you'll see that the bellhouse is not fabricated in the modern sense. The original 1930 bellhouse includes an integrated master cylinder mount as well as the mount to the chassis. This means that the location for mounting the starter has well and truly stitched me up.



And from below:


Just replacing the bellhouse with one from a 53 Plymouth (to match the engine) is not a straight forward job because of the frame mounts. I would have to fabricate the mounts myself, though not impossible, not ideal.

The suggestion is that I find a 1939-1947 truck bellhouse as these would have the required frame mounts and be somewhere near compatible. The width between the frame mounts is 600mm. So if anyone has a spare one please PM me?

Option 2:

For a little more clarity you can see how close the starter is to the block below:


Some people have contacted me to suggest using a different starter, perhaps one from a V8. Has anyone got a suggestion for one that has a maximum yoke diameter of 90mm?

I could then find a way of having the starter dog machined on to a slimmer starter opposed to grinding a starter down against the block.

Any help, as usual appreciated!