Welcome to the THE H.A.M.B. forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

Go Back   THE H.A.M.B. > General Discussion > The Hokey Ass Message Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-23-2006, 09:09 PM   #1
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default cavalier R&P steering question

I'm installing a cavalier rack in my 47 dodge this weekend. I am planning on mounting it much farther forward than most. I want to make a bracket that will bolt to the front of the rack and go down-under-and behind the rack. so that the tie rods can attach behind the rack. Does this sound safe and feasable?

I have attached a sketch to help.

red = Rack and Pinion
black = bracket
grey = steering input shaft
green = tie rods
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	R&P.JPG
Views:	246
Size:	7.2 KB
ID:	246136  
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2006, 09:45 PM   #2
41 C28
Senior Member
 
41 C28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middletown,Ohio
Posts: 1,349
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I have a cavalier power r & p laying under my 48 Dodge right now awaiting installation. If I'm reading your question right.
If you mount the rack and pinion so the tie rods mount to the rear wouldn't the steering input shaft be pointing in the wrong direction. It would on mine anyway. There was a post week or so ago about cavalier r & p on an old mopar titled "fatmans power rack and pinion conversion" and some good pictures by 50dodge4x4.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2006, 09:58 PM   #3
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 41 C28
I have a cavalier power r & p laying under my 48 Dodge right now awaiting installation. If I'm reading your question right.
If you mount the rack and pinion so the tie rods mount to the rear wouldn't the steering input shaft be pointing in the wrong direction. It would on mine anyway. There was a post week or so ago about cavalier r & p on an old mopar titled "fatmans power rack and pinion conversion" and some good pictures by 50dodge4x4.

That is why I am going to make a bracket to mount the tie rods behind the rack. The bracket will bolt in the front where the stock tie rods would mount and go underneath the rack and come back up behind the R & P.

I actually asked this question in the post you mentioned.

Gene does some great tech in that post. I'm wanting to do things a bit different so I can clear my headers and my oil pan. If this won't work I can get a rear sump and figure out the header deal another way. This will be the simplest way though.
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-23-2006, 10:09 PM   #4
flt-blk
Old School HAMBer
 
flt-blk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
Posts: 4,369
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Make your bracket STRONG and you should be OK.
Keep in mind the direction of the forces.
TZ
__________________
THEM TX "Nomad"
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2006, 10:31 PM   #5
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Here are the pictures again. If you flip the rack so the tie rod center connections are at the front of the rack instead of at the rear, I'm not sure you will be able to clear the rack with the tie rods. Once installed, I had to bend my tie rods towards the outside to clear everything.

You are also going to have the steering column connection facing forward, and that is going to create a bunch of problems. I gave that some thought when I had the front steer rack from the Intrepid hanging under my car (flipping the rack upside down) but that put the steering column connection on the passenger side of the car and I didn't think I could make the steering work.

The truck pan gives a lot of clearance between the rack and the crossmember and the pan. I can see where running headers through there is a mess, the starter gets in the way. I ran my exhaust outside of the frame rails and back under the running boards, but my motor sets pertty low in the frame. We did a set of headers on my sons 47 Plymouth with a 360 and the factory box. To clear everything we had to off set the motor towards the passenger side about 2". Can't see why you couldn't accomplish the same thing by off setting the motor using the rack. The rack has a lot more clearance then the stock box had along the side of the motor and we squeezed 4 header tubes through there.
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2006, 10:34 PM   #6
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Lets try for those pictures again.
Gene
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	39 plymouth 007.jpg
Views:	585
Size:	110.6 KB
ID:	246149   Click image for larger version

Name:	39 plymouth 017.jpg
Views:	522
Size:	99.6 KB
ID:	246150   Click image for larger version

Name:	39 plymouth 020.jpg
Views:	494
Size:	96.4 KB
ID:	246151  

offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2006, 10:35 PM   #7
41 C28
Senior Member
 
41 C28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middletown,Ohio
Posts: 1,349
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvanecek
That is why I am going to make a bracket to mount the tie rods behind the rack. The bracket will bolt in the front where the stock tie rods would mount and go underneath the rack and come back up behind the R & P.

I actually asked this question in the post you mentioned.

Gene does some great tech in that post. I'm wanting to do things a bit different so I can clear my headers and my oil pan. If this won't work I can get a rear sump and figure out the header deal another way. This will be the simplest way though.
Ok. I get it now, I'm a little slow sometimes. Looks like it would work to me.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2006, 10:49 PM   #8
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 41 C28
Ok. I get it now, I'm a little slow sometimes. Looks like it would work to me.
Ya, Me too. Sorry about that.
As long as your bracket was strong enough and your tie rods can clear the column connection you should be good. When you set this up, don't forget the outside tie rod has to move freely the full suspension travel through the full turning cycle. This could be a problem with a hard left turn and full compression of the left suspension. I would think I would want at least 3/4" to an inch of clearance at the extremes.

You will have to let us know how/if this works out.
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 05:30 AM   #9
Vinnie
Grenade Inspector
 
Vinnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London - England
Posts: 116
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Here are some pictures of the kit that Butch Rod Shop used to do for 47-54 Chevy using the Cavalier R&P
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Butch-Rod-Shop-KIt-dated-late-80s-3.jpg
Views:	321
Size:	25.1 KB
ID:	246191   Click image for larger version

Name:	Butch-Rod-Shop-KIt-dated-late-80s-2.jpg
Views:	387
Size:	27.6 KB
ID:	246192   Click image for larger version

Name:	Butch-Rod-Shop-KIt-dated-late-80s-5.jpg
Views:	417
Size:	28.4 KB
ID:	246193  

online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 06:15 AM   #10
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie
Here are some pictures of the kit that Butch Rod Shop used to do for 47-54 Chevy using the Cavalier R&P
Thnx for all the replies. Looks like it will work. I figured it would, but with steering and such I always like to double check and make sure I'm not missing something that could be unsafe.

Vinnie, that kits looks alot like what I'm planning. thnx.

flt-blk When are you in town next?
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 08:40 AM   #11
palosfv3
Senior Member
 
palosfv3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: palos park, ill
Posts: 1,163
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I'm puzzled by a couple of things in the post.
In the 1st pic from 50Dodge 4x4. Is the steering rack below the plane of the engine crossmember? If so this could be dangerous as an encounter with a road hazard can damage the rack and result in a loss of steering. Hopefully its just the pic?
Will the cavalier rack hold up to the additional loads and stresses from the additional weight of a heavier auto and drivetrain? Just because its been installed into the car doesnt mean it will work correctly.
Cavaliers weighed considerably less than many of the old sedans and coupes ,add a hemi (750lbs for the block and heads) trans and the like. You could easily have doubled the load on the steering components. Has anyone done the calculations ?
__________________
Larry
http://picasaweb.google.com/wgmauto
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 09:20 AM   #12
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I don't think weight would be an issue on steering since it doesn't see any weight load. It only sees lateral motion. The great about the cav rack is the center mounting location for the tie rods which alows them to be longer which will reduce bumpsteer. Also the curb weight for 96 cavalier = 3800 lbs curb weight of a 47 dodge = 3300 lbs. 383 maybe an extra 200 lbs over the inline 6 still weighs less than a cavalier. The only real concern is what 50dodge4X4 mentioned and that's binding.
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 09:30 AM   #13
Tudor
Old School HAMBer
 
Tudor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: GA
Posts: 5,967
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvanecek
I don't think weight would be an issue on steering since it doesn't see any weight load. It only sees lateral motion. The great about the cav rack is the center mounting location for the tie rods which alows them to be longer which will reduce bumpsteer. Also the curb weight for 96 cavalier = 3800 lbs curb weight of a 47 dodge = 3300 lbs. 383 maybe an extra 200 lbs over the inline 6 still weighs less than a cavalier. The only real concern is what 50dodge4X4 mentioned and that's binding.
I can't believe a cavalier weighs that much!! ha

lets get her done.
__________________
SFCC - We can do it ourselves

10.68 @ 127 MPH http://youtu.be/zDEnVfdLWuo
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 11:40 AM   #14
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Now you know why they are slow ass shit boxes.
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 12:55 PM   #15
55 dude
Old School HAMBer
 
55 dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wa. "The Wet Side"!
Posts: 7,703
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

why are you using cavalier r&p? gm has other center steer cars that would work. is their clearance issues. 50dodge4x4 seems to have the setup figured out. get those pm's going to him or get the dude on the phone so he can tell you the way he would it even better the second time.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 02:47 PM   #16
Tudor
Old School HAMBer
 
Tudor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: GA
Posts: 5,967
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 55 dude
why are you using cavalier r&p? gm has other center steer cars that would work. is their clearance issues. 50dodge4x4 seems to have the setup figured out. get those pm's going to him or get the dude on the phone so he can tell you the way he would it even better the second time.
why not, whats wrong with the cavalier unit? I think he got the cav rack for a song.
__________________
SFCC - We can do it ourselves

10.68 @ 127 MPH http://youtu.be/zDEnVfdLWuo
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 11:42 PM   #17
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 55 dude
why are you using cavalier r&p? gm has other center steer cars that would work. is their clearance issues. 50dodge4x4 seems to have the setup figured out. get those pm's going to him or get the dude on the phone so he can tell you the way he would it even better the second time.
Ha, you cought me on this one.... I used the Cavilere rack because I could sort of spell "Cavilere"! Under the part listing,all intermidiate GM center steer racks have the same part numbers. They only have one center steer rack.

The pictures are sum what deceiving, the rack on my car tucks up behind the center of the quite massive frame cross member and sits completely above the cross member and even above the oil pan sump. The view from the front is actuall with the car as high as my big floor jack and extended jack stands would get the car and the picture was taken with me laying on the shop floor. Should that rack become damaged from underneith, the loss of steering will be a mute point by then.

Several years back I did several years playing with dirt track cars running on a long straight track with a very unforgiving, very thick, cement wall. Protecting and maintaining a good steering system and good brakes was a very high priority.

All that said, this set up on my coupe has only been on my car since last spring and has only seen 6,000 miles of actual road use. I'm not pretending to be an athourity here, only telling you what I discovered when I put my setup together, but I can tell you mine works pretty good at this point. Might have a different story in another 30-40,000 miles,ask me in about 3 more years.
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 11:57 PM   #18
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Here is a picture I thought I had posted from the front, as I stated before, that picture is taken from laying on the ground with the cross member about 12" up in the air. The side view in the first picture was taken from above the outer tie rod end (the lower control arm is at the extrereme left) to show the amount of bend I put into the Intrepid tie rods. (I have also shortened the tie rod assemblies about 2" on each side of the car.) The tie rods I used are from a 93-97 Intrepid (which I had layiing around).Any one that has questions can PM me here, I'm online nearly every night.Gene
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	39 plymouth 018.jpg
Views:	282
Size:	77.1 KB
ID:	246477  
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 09:01 AM   #19
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudor
why not, whats wrong with the cavalier unit? I think he got the cav rack for a song.

Yep I got a rebuilt unit of an ebay resaler that is located here in atlanta for $65 to the door. know that I know where they are at the owner said he fine with people picking up parts so it I would have paid $35 for it. what a bargain. it's also the SS quick steer version (cav SS still cracksme up). also like Gene said they all use the same rack.

Tudor, PBRmeASAP, and my cousin cme by and we got the motor mounts remade. no time to mount the rack but I did get the bracket 90% made for the tie rods. I just need to cut to length and drill holes for the tie rods. I will do that after it's mounted.

Anyone use these tie rods shown in the link below, they are alot cheaper than speedway. I was thinking they would make a good starting point. I can use heim joins at one end and I can adapt the stock tie rod end to the other.

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/susp9a.htm

they also have steel and aluminum which have a 3/4 inch ID for the threaded rod.
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.

Last edited by Circus Bear; 11-26-2006 at 09:11 AM.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 10:08 PM   #20
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

My biggest concern with the heim joints would be with how well they would wear. Circle track cars tend to change front end componets on a pretty short interval, most being changed yearly or every two years. Figure they may race a 50 lap race, maybe another 10 lap race and maybe 10 hot laps a night on a 1/2 mile track would amount to 40 miles a week. The real hot dogs may race 2-3 nights a week and those guys would change things like heim joints on a regular bases. I really do not know how well these parts are going to hold up to street use.

How much you planning on driving your can a year? Or more importantly, how often you want to be checking for worn heim joints?
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 06:07 AM   #21
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50dodge4x4
My biggest concern with the heim joints would be with how well they would wear. Circle track cars tend to change front end componets on a pretty short interval, most being changed yearly or every two years. Figure they may race a 50 lap race, maybe another 10 lap race and maybe 10 hot laps a night on a 1/2 mile track would amount to 40 miles a week. The real hot dogs may race 2-3 nights a week and those guys would change things like heim joints on a regular bases. I really do not know how well these parts are going to hold up to street use.

How much you planning on driving your can a year? Or more importantly, how often you want to be checking for worn heim joints?
Gene
Very good point. Is the concern that circle track heim joints are crap, or that I should not use heims at all. I was planning on getting some good heims from speedway or summit etc; but if those won't do I need to rethink things a bit.
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 06:27 AM   #22
Tudor
Old School HAMBer
 
Tudor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: GA
Posts: 5,967
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvanecek
Very good point. Is the concern that circle track heim joints are crap, or that I should not use heims at all. I was planning on getting some good heims from speedway or summit etc; but if those won't do I need to rethink things a bit.
maybe replacement ball joints that attach to the steering arms like stock, then make the tie rods from there - Heim joints at the center link ought to be fine. there are different grade joints - better ones that allow lubrication should last. right?
__________________
SFCC - We can do it ourselves

10.68 @ 127 MPH http://youtu.be/zDEnVfdLWuo
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 08:26 AM   #23
junk runner jr
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lancaster, Oh, US
Posts: 466
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

can someone tell me how wide one of these Cavalier Racs are?
__________________
A huge THANK YOU to my H.A.M.B. brothers and sisters, you know who you are.
offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-27-2006, 01:12 PM   #24
FiddyFour
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TitleTown, WI, USA
Posts: 8,994
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

fatman fab makes these kits for 54 fords, altho im a cheap prick and i plan to make my own for the price they get, minus rack or u-joints ... not a hard piece of fabrication really,,, and yea, with a decent enough plate and brackets like Gene'o says, no problems makin it work.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 01:41 PM   #25
Tudor
Old School HAMBer
 
Tudor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: GA
Posts: 5,967
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by junk runner jr
can someone tell me how wide one of these Cavalier Racs are?
Dave is out of town - all week, from memory it was only 'bout yey wide -
__________________
SFCC - We can do it ourselves

10.68 @ 127 MPH http://youtu.be/zDEnVfdLWuo
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 04:34 PM   #26
junk runner jr
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lancaster, Oh, US
Posts: 466
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

perfect... my frame is exactly the same width.
__________________
A huge THANK YOU to my H.A.M.B. brothers and sisters, you know who you are.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 07:58 PM   #27
55 dude
Old School HAMBer
 
55 dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wa. "The Wet Side"!
Posts: 7,703
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

50dodge4x4 has this steering setup thought out in my opinion, usig modified tie rods with the ends you need adapted to them.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 11:52 PM   #28
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by junk runner jr
can someone tell me how wide one of these Cavalier Racs are?
I don't have the measurements here in front of me, but the rack it self (the part that would mount to the frame) is probably about 36" wide. It is about an inch longer then my Plymouth frame is wide, at the front cross member. The neat thing about the Cavaliar racks are that the inner pivot points are at the center of the rack, so your over all tie rod measurements could be as short as about 48", or about the total rack travel added to the rack length. BTW in case you missed it, the GM rack (88-93 Cavaliar rack) is a rear steer rack and a rack from a 93-97 Dodge Intrepid is the same set up but is a front steer rack. The tie rods interchange between the two systems if used as a full set (both sides from the same type car.)
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 11:59 PM   #29
FiddyFour
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TitleTown, WI, USA
Posts: 8,994
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

oh hell gene... i had no idea that them intrepids had center take off racks... VERY interesting, gets the ideas going
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 12:07 AM   #30
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

In this picture, the top is the original steering ststem from my 39 Plymouth, it is the same as one from a 39-54 stock Mopar would be. I think the picture one of the tie rod ends was taken off.
The bottom picture is a rack with the tie rods (these parts are from an Intrepid, the Cavaliar rack would be the same.) These parts are unmidified, except that I think one tie rod end is also missing from the rack. Each Tie rod assemble is 24" long per side.
Gene
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	39 Plymouth coupe 081.jpg
Views:	324
Size:	57.6 KB
ID:	247568  
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 12:12 AM   #31
FiddyFour
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TitleTown, WI, USA
Posts: 8,994
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

ok, who sees any problem with capping those power racks and running them as a manual? think they'd last like that or is the ratio too low to be usefull as armstrong steering?
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 12:16 AM   #32
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiddyFour
oh hell gene... i had no idea that them intrepids had center take off racks... VERY interesting, gets the ideas going
Hey Fiddy.

I have two of those Intrepid racks laying around here! bad as I wanted, I just couldn't figure out a way to make them front steer racks work on my rear steer car. Believe this, I had that damned rack in there in every direction possible, and then a few days later I tried again, just in case I'd missed something. In the end, I had to go and buy a rack, just sucked.

Those center take off racks are the nuts for these hot rods, just wished the tie rod ends were more cooperative.
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 12:29 AM   #33
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiddyFour
ok, who sees any problem with capping those power racks and running them as a manual? think they'd last like that or is the ratio too low to be usefull as armstrong steering?
You need a front steer rack? Can't cap them, loop em back together, capping won't work. Have no idea the ratio. You might be looking like Popeye the sailer man. Might maybe be an Intrepid rack in manual available? Be the same as a Chrysler Concord, or an Eagle Vision. Some Visions were stripped down.

The rear steer GM rack was available in either power or manual.

What ya thinking about a rack for?
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 07:34 AM   #34
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Fiddy,

Here's where I got mine. I did a buy it now, but knowing that he has several I would trying bidding first. I did a buy it now for $65 shipped.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy...3398QQtcZphoto

I went to their store in atlanta and they were great. gave me a tour etc. great people to work with.

Gene any feedback on my heim joint question?
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 07:47 AM   #35
41 C28
Senior Member
 
41 C28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middletown,Ohio
Posts: 1,349
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

The Fat Man r&p mounting kit comes with threaded tie rod adaptors (14mm x 1.5RH) to use 04-05 Ford Explorer outer tie rod ends with the Cavalier tie rods. The Explorer tie rod ends will fit Mopar tapered steering arm holes.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 08:51 AM   #36
FiddyFour
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TitleTown, WI, USA
Posts: 8,994
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

actually, some of the fatman kits come with a plate that bolts to the center takeoff mounts, and then "wraps" around the rack a bit and has tapered holes for stock inner ends. . . at least thats the kit thats available for the 54/55 fords anyhow.

Gene, the rack conversion is for the 54. . . i dont know why i want to end up with manual, maybe its the "keep the engine bay clean" idea i keep in the back of my head, but with a full fender kustom, why bother is always my second thought. build a decent smallblock ford, and toss the PS pump and AC pumps on it and be comfy
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 09:39 PM   #37
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

dvanecek,
Sorry bout that, got side tracked. I was told years ago the the racing heim joints would not hold up to street use. When I questioned why, I'm don't remember any specific answer. That means either I was never answered or the answer didn't stick in my brain....

I suppose that the lack of being able to lube them would probably be the biggest concern, but these days, most tie rod ends are of the non-lube varity, so that probably wouldn't make a lot of difference any more. Were I to do the heim joints, I would pass on the real cheap ones, I've seen to many of those break on impact. The higher quality heim joints seem to hold up better when exposed to impact. Then again, impacts in most racing ventures tend to be pretty extreme.

Like most things, if we see more then a couple of any one particular item fail and the result was pretty severe damage, we tend to suggest to everyone we see to not use that particular item. This would be reguardless of us not having all the back ground information involving the failures. I've seen heim joints fail in steering systems, but I've also seen tie rod ends fail too. The difference being that most tie rod end failures were directly related to lack of maintenance or being the result of a crash. The heim joint failures I've seen caused the crashes, maintenance unknown. Guess I'm more confortable with adapting something the auto industry has used for years. Just me.

Probably didn't help much, sorry bout that.
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 09:52 PM   #38
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Fiddy,
Shit man, you already got one racer, and you keep talking bout a HAMB rail, so make that 54 a cruiser, better yet, make it "the hauler".

The Hauler: fe block, dual quads, c-6, a power r&p, nice seats, ac, power windows, hell, power everything, big honking trailer hitch. Double car trailer (with the enclosed storage box) so you can haul the rail, the Willis, and the bf grill for the thrs night BBQ to Mokan. I kin see it now....That little 2 door coupe dragging a semi trailer around. "HEY 'ya all! Fiddy's here."

Damn, forgot mama fiddy wants a hot rod too....better make that a 3 car trailer.
Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2006, 06:37 AM   #39
Circus Bear
Old School HAMBer
 
Circus Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,937
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Great info guy's. I was planning on using the higher quality heims with grease fittings in this case. I'm pretty sure they will be fine. that explorer tie rod end info is great I may use those if I have issues adapting the stockers.
__________________
SFCC....
We can do it ourselves.
online   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2008, 09:13 PM   #40
Lonely_Kasket13
Grenade Inspector
 
Lonely_Kasket13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 120
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I tried reading through all of this but being new to all of this...and still in the learning process of building cars...I just want to ask one question I guess...will any of this work on my 51 plymouth...I am putting a bigger motor in and am having steering box clearance issues...and wonder if a r&p are the way to go to get clearance...can anyone help?...pm me with your thoughts...thanks...
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 05:50 PM   #41
49dodgecoronet
Newbie
 
49dodgecoronet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roland Mb
Posts: 75
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

i know most of this thread is almost 4 years old, but so far it is the most informative i have found on this conversion. Is the cavy rack a center linkage rack? and will the factory linkage work ? or do i have to make up my own linkage ? the only cavy racks i have been able to find pictures of look like they are end linkage.

thanks for any info
levi
__________________
49 dodge custom V12 powered ??????

03 Ram 1500 hemi 400 hp
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 08:07 PM   #42
50dodge4x4
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Freeport IL
Posts: 3,141
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

The picture in this post on reply #30 shows an Intrepid steering rack. The Cavalier rack itself looks exactly the same, the tie rods are different and the part that connects to the steering column are different, but the rack looks almost identical. I'd love to post more pictures, but those I had are on my other dead computer and the car is long gone.

They are center steering racks. When I was putting the 39 together, I only bought the rack because I had 2 Intrepid racks, complete, laying here. I can't believe you could not adapt the GM tie rods to work, but I simply did not even look at them. I'd be real supprised if anything is going to bolt right in without modification. Most of the new stuff that would have a rack have a wider suspension track.

The rack without the tie rods attached look like any other rack except at the center are two threaded holes the inner tie rod bolts into. There are no provisions for tie rods to connect at the end of the rack like other racks have. Gene
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 04:10 AM   #43
leaded
Grenade Inspector
 
leaded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 328
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

The GM (Cavalier,etc.) has one minor trouble. When making the "wrap" mount plate,(etc. mount who go "around" to the other side for tierod mount..) thats making a bigger tension on the original tierod mounting bolts. In these racks are a small plastic spacer inside who get some movement when in tension by the extra tierod connector.
As in the sketch (from side) the red arrow show movement, its not much, but as longer mount bracket thats used,the bigger the movement.
The rack holds up very well, and are also used by companys for modded Corvettes, and i got recorded 5y now without trouble, (w/ just angled tierod mount bracket.) My setup does give a movement approx.1/8" up and down on tierod connection. This doesnt conflict in use, and no sloop in geometry.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	RP.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	10.8 KB
ID:	1229992  
offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 02-03-2011, 04:13 AM   #44
leaded
Grenade Inspector
 
leaded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 328
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

measures, sorry but only in mm.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 11:48 AM   #45
36DodgeRam
Grenade Inspector
 
36DodgeRam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Monrovia, Indiana
Posts: 397
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I put a Cav R & P in my '40 Plymouth years ago with a kit from Plydo. It works great, I recommend the swap. But I lost some turn radius over the stock system.
__________________
'40 Plymouth Roadking Coupe, '36 Dodge Pickup, '46 Case VAC
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 03:09 PM   #46
Rickdeluxe
Newbie
 
Rickdeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 76
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

My p19 Plymouth is in the process of having the Cavalier rack installed (Cavalier steering is the same as Saab 900 steering and Opel Vectra). I had some trouble finding a tie rod end that would fit the tapered bit in the Plymouth steering rod and on the other side screw in the Cavalier steering arm.
The problem was solved by machining/tapping a coupler with internal thread 11/16 one end and M16 outer thread on the opposing side.
Piccie shows all...

offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 05:15 PM   #47
cattmann
Newbie
 
cattmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 55
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Can anyone tell me what pump to use? I have a 318 engine installed in my 1941 Chrysler Royal and was going to use a Saginaw pump due to having some brackets already. Also I noticed that an Omni car had a rack in 1980 and it is a saginaw pump.I guess i am trying to find a pump with suitable psi for a rack.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 06:59 PM   #48
tedley
Senior Member
 
tedley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: canada
Posts: 1,755
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiddyFour View Post
ok, who sees any problem with capping those power racks and running them as a manual? think they'd last like that or is the ratio too low to be usefull as armstrong steering?
I put a cavy rack in my 50 shoe which is a power unit. I got a manual rack, which by the way is a few inches shorter but it takes a different u joint which is splined. Anyway, i'm running the power rack with capped ends for now till i find the manual u joint and other than it's like typical manual steering in parking situations, it's steers beautifuly. I love it. I suspect thou, but not sure about lubrication of the shaft. I may have a sealed bearing or not. I've only put about 3000 miles on this new build
Any one know where i can get a u joint for a manual rack? I've tried almost everyone. Manual racks seem hard to get as well.
Pic shows manual rack end. U joint shown is stock power unit.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	50 ford 447 (Large).jpg
Views:	28
Size:	64.6 KB
ID:	2161006   Click image for larger version

Name:	50 ford 446 (Large).jpg
Views:	32
Size:	61.2 KB
ID:	2161007   Click image for larger version

Name:	50 ford 448 (Large).jpg
Views:	31
Size:	81.2 KB
ID:	2161008  


Last edited by tedley; 03-19-2014 at 07:09 PM.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 07:27 PM   #49
GeezersP15
Grenade Inspector
 
GeezersP15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: N.E. PA
Posts: 288
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I'm just starting to install a Beretta/Cavalier rack in my 1948 Plymouth. Using Intrepid tie rods, and a machined steel block with appropriate angles milled on the ends to make the Intrepid tie rods parallel with the rack assembly. I'll post pics as the work progresses. Still fabricating mounting brackets, and gathering parts.
Using a GM "canned ham" pump, and a Heidt adjustable relief valve, because I cannot seem to determine what pressure the rack wants. Even the local Chevrolet dealer wasn't able to give me a PSI rating. I should be able to dial it in, if the pump develops excessive pressure.
Still have a few issues to work out with adding a pulley to drive the pump (SBC engine, and clearance issues with the lower radiator hose), but I think I'll get there eventually.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 12:41 AM   #50
4woody
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca. USA
Posts: 1,805
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

I can't answer about the Heidt's valve, but I've gone through the pump selection hell recently and here's what I found:

I started with a Saginaw canned ham pump out of a Chevy pickup (this is on a '38 Chrysler 4000lb car with the Cavalier rack). It was way over-assisted and the steering was unpleasantly busy at freeway speeds.

I got the Borgeson shim kit (Really just thin washers & a widget to hold the P/S valve in your vice while working on it) to reduce the pressure. I put in 4 shims and it helped a lot; still a little too touchy over center,but I could have lived with it. But then the pump failed (no fault of the shims- it was old).

In searching I found that my original truck pump may have been rated as much as 1400psi (or more), and the Cav rack is happier at 1000 or even a bit less. According to my reading 1962-1983 Corvette P/S pumps were rated at 1000psi.

The 1972 pump is canned ham style (Apparently they also used the earlier-looking reservoir in '72, so be sure you get the one you like), uses the keyway pulley, and has the IFF pressure fitting. Those were all important to me so I wouldn't have to buy a new pressure hose or pulley.

The size of the orifice in the pressure valve is what determines GPM flow. At "Crankshaft Coalition" http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...inion_steering they suggest welding this hole closed and re-drilling it @ 1/8" to reduce the flow rate by 20%. Maybe I'm lucky, but the rebuilt pump I got (remember, 1972 Corvette application) was already that size. Yes, I compared it to my old one to be sure. They are not all the same.





Just drove it another 60 freeway miles today. Pump & rack seem very happy together.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 09:06 AM   #51
GeezersP15
Grenade Inspector
 
GeezersP15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: N.E. PA
Posts: 288
Talking Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4woody View Post
I can't answer about the Heidt's valve, but I've gone through the pump selection hell recently and here's what I found:

I started with a Saginaw canned ham pump out of a Chevy pickup (this is on a '38 Chrysler 4000lb car with the Cavalier rack). It was way over-assisted and the steering was unpleasantly busy at freeway speeds.

I got the Borgeson shim kit (Really just thin washers & a widget to hold the P/S valve in your vice while working on it) to reduce the pressure. I put in 4 shims and it helped a lot; still a little too touchy over center,but I could have lived with it. But then the pump failed (no fault of the shims- it was old).

In searching I found that my original truck pump may have been rated as much as 1400psi (or more), and the Cav rack is happier at 1000 or even a bit less. According to my reading 1962-1983 Corvette P/S pumps were rated at 1000psi.

The 1972 pump is canned ham style (Apparently they also used the earlier-looking reservoir in '72, so be sure you get the one you like), uses the keyway pulley, and has the IFF pressure fitting. Those were all important to me so I wouldn't have to buy a new pressure hose or pulley.

The size of the orifice in the pressure valve is what determines GPM flow. At "Crankshaft Coalition" http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...inion_steering they suggest welding this hole closed and re-drilling it @ 1/8" to reduce the flow rate by 20%. Maybe I'm lucky, but the rebuilt pump I got (remember, 1972 Corvette application) was already that size. Yes, I compared it to my old one to be sure. They are not all the same.





Just drove it another 60 freeway miles today. Pump & rack seem very happy together.
Thank you for that information. I just knew someone on this forum would help out.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 07:43 PM   #52
cattmann
Newbie
 
cattmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 55
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Yes indeed .Thanks for the pump info. I was looking at a pump from a 1980 Omni. It is a saginaw and looks identical to the chevy pumps. Can one assume that it will me setup for a lower pressure because it is used on a rack and pinion
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 07:49 PM   #53
cattmann
Newbie
 
cattmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 55
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

This is a pump listed for an Omni or Horizon around 1979
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	$T2eC16Z,!y!FIdJjM-UVBSJOQ5eBig~~_35.JPG
Views:	10
Size:	35.0 KB
ID:	2161747   Click image for larger version

Name:	$T2eC16Z,!zoE9s5ngM)QBSJOQtYE9Q~~_35.JPG
Views:	9
Size:	12.5 KB
ID:	2161748  
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 08:59 PM   #54
tedley
Senior Member
 
tedley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: canada
Posts: 1,755
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Here's a link i found years ago and found it again. Some good info in there including pump pressure.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...inion_steering
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 09:23 PM   #55
41 C28
Senior Member
 
41 C28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middletown,Ohio
Posts: 1,349
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by cattmann View Post
Can anyone tell me what pump to use? I have a 318 engine installed in my 1941 Chrysler Royal and was going to use a Saginaw pump due to having some brackets already. Also I noticed that an Omni car had a rack in 1980 and it is a saginaw pump.I guess i am trying to find a pump with suitable psi for a rack.
The donor car for the 318 in my 48 Dodge was a 70 Coronet. I used the stock ps pump with my Cavalier R&P. Works fine.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 11:28 AM   #56
4woody
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca. USA
Posts: 1,805
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

Forgot to add this for us Mopar types:

On a big block Mopar w/o air, with the P/S pump mounted high on the driver's side I found that a P/S pulley from a long water pump SBC worked. The whole pulleys & brackets / what works with what is not well documented to say the least.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 05:48 PM   #57
cattmann
Newbie
 
cattmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 55
Default Re: cavalier R&P steering question

i have brackets from a 360 but they mount in behind the water pump pulley and end up making the pump location too low and it hits on my frame under the battery. I was also looking at brackets on ebay for early 70's darts and dusters which install the pump high on the drivers side.I am not going to panic about a pump at this point because i haven't installed my new rack yet and it will probably give me lots of grief.
offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:27 AM.