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Hot Rods XO/PP Bonneville project

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by john mullen, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. I would keep the valve to piston around .060 and piston to head around .040 I have had them as tight as .035 and see signs that the piston barley kiss's the head just enough to keep the carbon cleared of but not hurt anything.
    Building completive Late Model engines takes everything you can get. you push everything to the limit and then back off just ever so much. I'm sure I was not the only one doing it..
     
  2. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 7,511

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Seems to me that I remember at least one of the older, well established cam grinders had those cutters in their catalog, maybe Isky or Crane, not sure.:confused:
    As a machinist with almost 50 years in the trade, I would say that a skilled machinist in a well equipped general job shop could make those cutters. You would have to silver solder HSS/Cobalt lathe tool blanks, maybe 3/16" square of appropriate length to the face of the valve, and then use a tool and cutter grinder to shape and sharpen the tool blanks.
    John, last night I finally read all the way through your thread on the VA HAMB forum after joining a day earlier, and thoroughly enjoyed it.:cool:
    Took a little longer to get home from Lanexa than the 9 hours heading up on Christmas Day when there was a LOT less traffic. Took about 9.5 hrs vs the 9.0 going up, still not bad for 604 miles though.:D Sister fixed me left over turkey sandwich that I ate on the run though vs stopping at a Denny's on the way up, which probably saved me at least 30-40 min.:)
    Once again, I really enjoyed my trip to Lanexa and a reunion with brother and sister, plus niece, nephew, and nephew's fiance. The nephew is in USArmy and is headed to Korea in February:eek:
    And the visit with you was great, the "icing on the cake":D
     
  3. RacingRoger
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 178

    RacingRoger
    Member

    Thanks, John, for the further details on notching the pistons. I won't be building any competition engines any time soon, but I love reading about how folks "get the machinery to do what it does.". That's one reason I really enjoy this site and the technical questions that arise. I really do learn alot!
     
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  4. as I have always said( the more you learn the less you will need to know)
     
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  5. Machining out header flanges... IMG_0423.JPG IMG_0424.JPG IMG_0426.JPG
     
  6. ENUF 41
    Joined: Dec 24, 2016
    Posts: 122

    ENUF 41
    Member

    John, Thx for sharing
     
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  7. My pleasure. Thanks for your interest in the Bonneville Project..
     
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  8. I woke up to this today . Cold but beautiful, think I'll take the day off LOL IMG_0428.JPG IMG_0429.JPG IMG_0430.JPG
     
  9. Is that salt John? A shake down run on Route 60 would be pretty convenient!

    This raises a question for me as a rookie driver – is the traction on the salt better, the same or worse than driving on snow? Think front engine, rear wheel drive vehicle with a posi.
     
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  10. Dave, I guess we will find out, but I'm thinking salt is not as slick as snow .LOL
     
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  11. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 40,352

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Naturally aspirated means not blown. I am not looking at a rule book and @RichFox would be better at answering that question on induction, but all naturally aspirated means is that you can't use a blower or turbo charger.

    No offense intended just so that the fellas who don't know will know.

    What record are you shooting at? Be interesting to hear your end result.
     
  12. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 7,511

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Since that egine has only 4 intake ports for 6 cyl. I'm thinking that the big box manifold that John did such a beautiful job building (I've been lucky enough to see it up close and personal about a week ago) will actually do a better job of feeding that engine than a hilborn type mech. injection.
    Interestingly enough, the SEGA Gassers rules allow the racers to weigh 100# less with fuel injection of that type.
     
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  13. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,228

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yeah it's a pretty strange deal. If you were going to use any kind of fuel injection I would guess you would want to keep the plenum box. Maybe mount two nozzles in the runner for the siamese ports and one in the others. Hard to say whether or not it would be better or worse.
     
  14. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,040

    jimmy six
    Member

    Shared intake ports with uneven pulses between firings are very difficult to make run on gasoline with mechanical fuel injection. It's better with alcohol and better yet with nitro.. I'm sure an electronic injection system could be programmed.
     
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  15. porknbeaner, XO/PP class record is 131 and change at Bonneville. The 262 Ford engine has a unique design. it has 4 of the cylinders fueled off one runner for 1&2 and one runner for 5&6 however they do not fill one right after the other .Using the engines firing order I use a two header split systems 3 tubes are on cylinders 123 and 3 tubes are on cylinders 456 dumping into 2 separate collectors . It fires one front, one rear, one front, one rear, and so on. The shared runners 1&2 5&6 do not follow each other. because of this in theory they act as single individual runners. The only difference is those runners are they had to be ported somewhat larger in order that they all flow the same. The flow bench don't lie. LOL The stepped headers 1 1/2 to 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 are tuned to match up to the intake runner length and plenum volume. I wont go into the size and length relationships hear at this time. but a lot of flow bench work went into that process. hope this helps to understand the theory behind this. If everything works as planed there is a real potential of 1.5 H.P. per cu. in. or better.. 271 inch's times 1.5 = 406.5 H.P. We will have to wait and see.... IMG_3067.JPG
     
  16. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 14,968

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    [​IMG]
    http://www.lindytools.com/ihpc

    Cheap enough to not bother trying to make them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  17. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 14,968

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    What about moving the nozzles down runner, under the valve cover, so each one services one port, even on the siamese ones?
     
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  18. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,040

    jimmy six
    Member

    That's been done too; works best with fuel. with mechanical injection like hilborns, remember all the nozzles are squirting all the time. With gasoline it's best to have the nozzles far from the valves.
     
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  19. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,228

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is common knowledge. Everybody knows it's true. However, my Plymouth banger seemed to run OK with the two port injection pictured earlier in this thread. And I thought Ernies GMC in Markleys old tank ran pretty good with Algons. That was fuel though.
     
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  20. rd martin
    Joined: Nov 14, 2006
    Posts: 1,831

    rd martin
    Member
    from indiana

    THIS IS VERY INTERESTING GUYS! ENJOYING THE POSTS! WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK! TRYING TO MAKE MY FIRST AT BONNEVILLE THIS YEAR. NO CAR JUST SPECTATOR. VERY IMPRESSIVE MACHINE WORK.
     
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  21. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 40,352

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Home work, home work home work. That is how you make an oddball run. You definitely got a line on it and with that truck you should be able to make a buck forty or so on 300 ponies. Given that you can keep it tied down and the salt is forgiving. I want to hear it and I know I can't be there (at least if I am going by what I know today) so please get a gopro with sound. ;)


    I am not as high tech as most I would think that a pair of Enderle Barn doors or if you wanted to go modern a pair of flying toilets in that intake would work for injection real well. Granted that are not much more than a pair of big carbs but it would be more than doable.
     
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  22. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 8,525

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I noticed you just have a window net.
    I thought you had to have a net that would cover the whole door opening.
     
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  23. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,228

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That is correct. I had to go to a full opening net on my coupe. No net on the roadster.
     
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  24. Thanks for that info I'll check into that right away.
     
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  25. Now that I see the name Lindy tools I recall that is exactly where I purchased my cutters. they will make then to size for your application needs. I have made some from valves before but they don't work nearly as well ..
     
  26. Hey Thanks Guy's, I appreciate all the information posted on Fuel Injection. It's certainly something to think about. I will keep all this in mind. I have used Mechanical Fuel Injection in the past. Tuning it is a science in itself, once its figured out it works great. I have found it to be a slow learning curve to perfection .. Matching the fuel curve to the air flow curve is not an easy task. and that is exactly what makes Modern electronic Fuel Injection so easy. It's lap top tunable.
    I will be using Holley wide band A/F ratio units in the headers to monitor and adjust the air/fuel mix when we place the truck on the chassis dyno. Once we get to Bonneville it will need to be adjusted again due to altitude changes, air density, water vapor, temperature ect. but they will at least be close and have a base line to go by
    I have tuned on Holley carbs for over 50 years and have a very good handle on how to tune them to perfection.
     
  27. Finally the header mandrel bends are showing up. UPS, FED X, and USPS have had much delay with all the snow all over the country. Time to get the headers laid out, cut and put together. IMG_0431.JPG
     
  28. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,228

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    porknbeaner
    I am not as high tech as most I would think that a pair of Enderle Barn doors or if you wanted to go modern a pair of flying toilets in that intake would work for injection real well. Granted that are not much more than a pair of big carbs but it would be more than doable.[/QUOTE]
    Beaner: I am shocked. You would buy expensive race parts instead of using readily available junk yard throttles? It's just an air valve. All the newer EFI cars have them. All kinds of sizes and made to last 100,000 miles. Much better made than aftermarket MFI throttles. And this truck is going to be carburated. But if he had wanted MFI he could have had cool parts for a Ford. Check the script on the castings. DSCN8335.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  29. OK. I am blown away, that's ALOT OF WORK for a $100 trophy and a red plaque.
    I have been off/.away working on stuff in the backyard. Your work is amazing.
    We used to race with a Craig's List motor,,,, I might just go hide,,,,,

    Just remember, The Salt is a Difficult Mistress
    Good Luck! See You There
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  30. No You don't, you can have a metal cover on from the cross bar to the floor,, either solid or mesh are legal.
    It is to keep body parts inside the interior plane of the roll cage in case of roll over.
    Also there is a rule change on wrist restraints that was just passed.
    Watch for it on the SCTA site
     
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