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Would these Rules still be considered HAMB HA/GRs Rules

Discussion in 'HA/GR' started by Toymaker, May 11, 2009.

  1. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    When I hand the HA/GR Rules out here in NHRA land I feel I'm misleading interested parties and to fully inform people we need these admendments. I would like too print copies of these rules with the HA/GR Designation. I've asked the same question of Ryan.

    HAMB GAS RAIL WEST RULES
    THESE RULES ARE GUIDELINES AND WRITTEN USING THE 2008 NHRA RULE BOOK.
    Please check current rule book when building a car
    1. Frame rails shall be production or modified production units, or 1 ½” by 3” by .118” wall (or larger) rectangular tube, or round tube 3′’ in diameter by 118” wall (or larger). No “slingshot” chassis’ allowed. Driver & engine will be located between the front & rear axle centerlines. Minimum wheelbase of 90" SEE NHRA 4:12
    2. Stock width front axles and rear ends only. Front axles shall be stock production units or equivalent width aftermarket units only. Front suspension optional on cars weighing 2350 lbs or less with 100 inch or longer wheelbase. SEE NHRA ET Handicap racing, Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, Suspension, Altereds, Dragsters Also SEE NHRA 3:2, 3:4, 3:5
    3. All cars must have at least a five point roll cage of minimum 1 5/8″, 118” Mild Steel wall tubing. SEE NHRA 4:11
    4. Rear axles shall be stock width production units only, aftermarket axles required on any car with spool, NO WELDED SPIDERS. SEE NHRA 2:11. Aftermarket gears, bearings and seals, etc. are allowed. Stock C-Clip axle retention Prohibited. SEE NHRA 2:2 One piece axles recommended, Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers.
    5. Closed or enclosed drivelines are encouraged. SEE NHRA 4:9 & 2:4 Open drivelines shall have 2"x 1/4″ “retaining hoop” straps within 6″ of front universal joints. A minimum of .120 Steel plate flooring to protect driver from u-joint in case of failure.
    6. Cars must have cowl/body and floor boards, belly pan sufficient to prevent driver’s legs from exiting vehicle unintentionally Minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel. SEE NHRA 7:5 Sub flooring independent of car body is mandatory in Dragsters that allow drivers legs to rest on Belly Pan or Chassis. SEE NHRA ET Handicap Racing A minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel firewall is mandatory. SEE NHRA 7:4
    7. No “slingshot” chassis. Driver and engine must be positioned between the front and rear axles.
    8. Cars must be equipped with an engine mounted starter and be self starting.
    9. Batteries must be securely mounted using modern safety standards and separate from drivers compartment. SEE NHRA 8:1
    10. All cars must have a master battery cutoff switch accessible from outside the car. Cars shall have a master battery cutoff switch safely accessible from the outside rear the car.
    11. Cars must have at least one red rear running light for night racing.
    12. Engines must be pre-1962, inline, overhead, flathead and flathead V8 types with production cylinder blocks only. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. No “V” type engines other than flatheads allowed.
    13. Engines must be naturally aspirated. No superchargers, turbos, nitrous oxide or fuel injection.
    14. No electronic ignition boxes mounting outside the distributor or “coil in cap” HEI allowed. Conversions in the manner of Petronix that fit within a stock dist cap are allowed. No aftermarket magnetos allowed.
    15. Pump gas/racing gas only. No Methanol, nitromethane, or alcohol.

    16. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs.
    17. Fuel lines shall have no more than 12” total (and no single piece over 6”) of rubber line in good condition.
    18. Cars equipped with a cooling system or water tank must use a radiator cap and overflow/catch can system.
    19. Automatic transmissions are not allowed. All cars with clutches must run a stamped steel bell housing or a 1/4″ scatter shield over production bellhousing.
    20. Cars must have rims no wider than 6″ and only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Tire tread width must measure no more than 6″.
    21. Drivers must wear up to date NHRA acceptable full face helmet with shield (Snell M2000, M2005, K2005, SA2005, SFI 31.2A or 41.2 SEE NHRA 10:7 & ET Handicap Racing). SFI 3:3 Neck Collar or SFI 3:3 Head Sock or Skirted Helmet Required. 3.2A/5 two layer fire retardant jacket & pants or suit required, SFI 3:3 Gloves required on all open bodied cars. SEE NHRA 10:10 Leather shoes recommended. Arm Restraints required SEE NHRA 10:3
    22. Five point NHRA approved safety harness required.
    23. All cars must be of general soundness and safety. Must have all lug nuts, sound steering, cotter pins in place, and heim ends “captured” etc. Must pass all tracks general safety rules.
    24. No electronic/pneumatic drivers aids such as rev limiters, two steps, shift lights or electric shifters. Tachometers are allowed if they don’t have a rev limiter or a shift light.
    25. Cars must be built in the spirit of the “Bug” and other early rail jobs. If ya aren’t familiar, ya better ask…
    26. All HA/GR cars are required to run a H.A.M.B. Logo in a visible location.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
  2. bobw
    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
    Posts: 2,368

    bobw
    Member

    Rocky, That's how I HAD to build mine. Otherwise it would be nothing but a show car. None of the strips around here would have let me run.
     
  3. REJ
    Joined: Mar 4, 2004
    Posts: 1,612

    REJ
    Member
    from FLA

    Maybe I do not understand the above post. Are you asking if these cars will be classed as HA/GR's if they follow these guidelines?
    I really do not see anything in the NHRA rules that would prevent that.
    I think that everyone understands they have to meet certain safety requirements to run these at "some" NHRA tracks. All of the tracks are not as strict as some in your state.
    I have run mine with the single hoop, four point cage at several NHRA sanctioned tracks and have not had a problem. These tracks had some reasonable tech inspectors that understood that this was not a top fuel dragster and was not running under 12 seconds, so therefore the rules for them did not apply.
    While we are on this subject, the HA/GR that ran (female driver) out in California, looks to be a single hoop roll bar. How did she manage to get through tech? Not that it is important, but I was wondering ever since I saw the picture.
    I realize that at some point and time, I may have to change the roll bar in mine or make some modifications to it later on. Until I am made to do this, I will continue to run mine as is.
    As far as the first post, I see no reason that these modifications would bar these cars from being classed as HA/GR.
    I believe that 2b banjo and cowboy are both running six point cages, double hoop roll bars in their cars and they are classed as HA/GR's.
    The big difference that I see at the HAMB drags that seperates these cars are the auto/stick trannies. The auto's get to run with us, but they are classed as dragster.
    Robert
     
  4. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    The car with the single hoop got thru tech because the promoter paid extra insurance too allow 3 point cages on 10 second & slower cars. I would just like to make copies of the rules as I amended them with the designation of HAMB HA/GR attached. Thanks for the input guys, Rocky
     

  5. I think a clarification between the HAMB official, and the California required, rules would be fair. Make sure that the folks you hand those out to understand the difference, and, going back to the cars built "stealth", make sure they understand where to go to get the original skinny.

    No matter what you guys in Cali are "stuck" with, I believe it is important for anyone potentially interested in this class to understand that at the core original intent of the class, it wasn't intended to BE NHRA legal, and that the class is now what it is, and will continue to evolve to be what it becomes, IN SPITE OF, not because of, the NHRA.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  6. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,308

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Looks good to me Rocky. The safety requirements are something that need to be noted or people will build cars and find out when they get to the track that they can't pass tech.

    Basically just an update to the original rules to note the necessities of some changes to meet the local tech inspections.

    I must say having started our build a bit later than you and Old6rodder, we have benefited from your trials with the tech inspectors clarifying the necessary points needing changes before we got deep into the build. It has made our design choices easier on some parts.:D
     
  7. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 19,872

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Staff Member

    Yep. It would be better to simply have the official rules and then at the bottom clearly state the additional California amendments.
     
  8. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,969

    Rand Man
    Member

    I agree, Put the HAMB rules first, and any local association later.
     
  9. Racer Ralph
    Joined: Jun 16, 2008
    Posts: 15

    Racer Ralph
    Member


    Rocky Good start, but you better look out trying to change the rules.
    Ralph
     
  10. Rocky...
    Remember that those rules apply if you are building a car configured like yours.
    the current HA/GR paradigm necessitates all of the california amendments.

    if you build a car more like the bug, alot of that stuff goes out the window.

    food for thought.

    but i think that for guys who want to build a hamb style DRAGSTER, the cal. rules will help with alot of headaches down the road.
     
  11. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    Here is what I'll be handing out when someone shows interest in our car. I'm a HAMB and HA/GR class spokesman, nothings changed.
    A story for conversation. Jerry Turner (Turners Auto Wrecking), Art Williams (original owner of Cal State Muffler) have both told me the story of a tragic death at the Madera Drags in the '50s. A group of guys had built a coupe with no doors and the top was bolted on after the driver got in the car. Something happened to cause a fuel leak in the drivers compartment, yes the fuel tank was in the "Traditional" location next to the driver, and it caught fire. Jerry told me he burned to death in the car, Art told me he had just made a run and came up on the horrific scene, jumped out with his fire extinguiser (one of the few that carried one in the day) but could do nothing, the fire was inside the coupe. He says he remembers like it was yesterday. How "Traditional" do we want to get and do we use only a little common sense when there is more out there. Let the hazing begin, Rocky
    Team TWIRL’N GAS Rail Reference Sheet
    Check out the Jalopy Journal for more information
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=38
    THESE ARE GUIDELINES AND WRITTEN USING THE 2008 NHRA RULE BOOK.
    Please check current NHRA rule book when building a car​
    1. Frame rails shall be production or modified production units, or 1 ½” by 3” by .118” wall (or larger) rectangular tube, or round tube 3′’ in diameter by 118” wall (or larger). No “slingshot” chassis’ allowed. Driver & engine will be located between the front & rear axle centerlines. Minimum wheelbase of 90" SEE NHRA 4:12
    2. Stock width front axles and rear ends only. Front axles shall be stock production units or equivalent width aftermarket units only. Front suspension optional on cars weighing 2350 lbs or less with 100 inch or longer wheelbase. SEE NHRA ET Handicap racing, Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, Suspension, Altereds, Dragsters Also SEE NHRA 3:2, 3:4
    3. All cars must have at least a five point roll cage of minimum 1 5/8″, 118” Mild Steel wall tubing. SEE NHRA 4:11
    4. Rear axles shall be stock width production units only. Aftermarket gears are allowed. One piece axles recommended, Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers. SEE NHRA 2:11, 2:2 Brakes 3:1
    5. Closed or enclosed drivelines are encouraged. SEE NHRA 4:9 & 2:4 Open drivelines shall have 2"x 1/4″ “retaining hoop” straps within 6″ of front universal joints. A minimum of .120 Steel plate flooring to protect driver from u-joint in case of failure.
    6. Cars must have cowl/body and floor boards, belly pan sufficient to prevent driver’s legs from exiting vehicle unintentionally Minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel. SEE NHRA 7:5 Sub flooring independent of car body is mandatory in Dragsters that allow drivers legs to rest on Belly Pan or Chassis. SEE NHRA ET Handicap Racing A minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel firewall is mandatory. SEE NHRA 7:4 Windscreen 7:7
    7. Cars must be equipped with an engine mounted starter and be self starting.
    8. Batteries must be securely mounted using modern safety standards and separate from drivers compartment. SEE NHRA 8:1
    9. Cars must have a master battery cutoff switch accessible from outside the car. SEE NHRA 8:4
    10. Cars must have at least one red rear running light for night racing.
    11. Engines must be pre-1962, inline, overhead, flathead and flathead V8 types with production cylinder blocks only. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. No “V” type engines other than flatheads allowed.
    12. Engines must be naturally aspirated. No superchargers, turbos, nitrous oxide or fuel injection.
    13. No electronic ignition boxes mounting outside the distributor or “coil in cap” HEI allowed. Conversions in the manner of Petronix that fit within a stock dist cap are allowed. No aftermarket magnetos allowed.
    14. Pump gas/racing gas only. No Methanol, nitromethane, or alcohol.
    15. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs Flash Shield or Scoop Required SEE NHRA 1:4
    16. Fuel lines shall have no more than 12” total of rubber line. SEE NHRA 1:5
    17. Cooling system or water tank must use a radiator cap and overflow/catch can system. SEE NHRA 1:7
    18. Automatic transmissions are not allowed. All cars with clutches must run a stamped steel bell housing or a 1/4″ scatter shield over production bellhousing. SEE NHRA 2:3 2:5 2:6
    19 Cars must have rims no wider than 6″ and only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Tire tread width must measure no more than 6″. SEE NHRA 5:1, 5:2
    20. Drivers must wear up to date NHRA acceptable full face helmet with shield (Snell M2000, M2005, K2005, SA2005, SFI 31.2A or 41.2 SEE NHRA 10:7 & ET Handicap Racing). SFI 3:3 Neck Collar or SFI 3:3 Head Sock or Skirted Helmet Required. SEE NHRA 10:8 3.2A/5 two layer fire retardant jacket & pants or suit required, SFI 3:3 Gloves required on all open bodied cars. SEE NHRA 10:10 Leather Driving shoes 3:3A/5 & Arm Restraints required @ FAMOSO & Recommended SEE NHRA 10:3
    21. Five point NHRA approved safety harness required. SEE NHRA 10:5
    22. All cars must be of general soundness and safety. Must have all lug nuts, sound steering, cotter pins in place, and heim ends “captured” etc.
    23. No electronic/pneumatic drivers aids such as rev limiters, two steps, shift lights or electric shifters. Tachometers are allowed if they don’t have a rev limiter or a shift light.
    24. Cars are to be built in the spirit of the 1950’s
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  12. underdogexpress
    Joined: Jan 12, 2009
    Posts: 31

    underdogexpress
    Member
    from oshkosh wi

    fairly open rules ,like we have, are awesome for creativity and cool cars came from it. the downside is the issue we have now. where are we going to be legal to run? for the vast majority of us, there will be an nhra track to deal with. someone is going to have to take the lead and negotiate ha/gr rules with the nhra so we can all be accepted. it isnt that hard. i used to race diesel semi's and those trucks dont even fit in most of the nhra's general rules. the nhra adopted most of the ddra rules we were using and we became an exhibition class. universally accepted at all nhra tracks. the general rules dont fit a lot of what ha/gr's are either. lets negotiate with them and see what we can do. its unfair to the cali guys to have to build different cars. its also unfair to have other guys build cars that can only race at outlaw tracks. i dont want to change what i have, but i'd rather do it now than later.
     
  13. nexxussian
    Joined: Mar 14, 2007
    Posts: 3,240

    nexxussian
    Member

  14. C'mon dude- common sense? I like the way you put "traditional" in quotations, insinuating that "traditional" is lacking in common sense, or is unsafe, and current NHRA is "safe". Insinuations like that are part of the problem, not the solution.

    God how I have grown to hate the word traditional as it relates to our version of race cars and hot rods. I think I detest "traditional" even more than I detest "rat rod".

    Our focus isn't on tradition per se, so much as it is on capturing a moment in time in drag racing, and, on the main board, hot rodding. As such, it is totally possible to build a car that captures our "moment in time", and IS safe for all involved, without resorting to the side curtain airbag, multiple crumple zone, 5mph crash bumper 49 point cage tampons the NHRA would like to impose on all of us.
     
  15. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,308

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Amen to the "capturing a moment in time in drag racing". It isn't about tradition or design as much as it truly is about concept and spirit. Seems like folks are getting as obsessive about some of this as the "numbers matching, correct widget restorers" when the idea is to return to the beginnings of the sport and "racing garage built self designed cars, heads up, may the best man (or woman) win, lets gather in the pits after for a hot dog and talk about your ideas and I'll share mine". It really is as much about the comradeship and such as it is the racing and a return to the simpler times and attitudes that used to exist.

    As for the "resorting to the side curtain airbag, multiple crumple zone, 5mph crash bumper 49 point cage tampons the NHRA would like to impose on all of us". Perhaps if we just build male cars only we can avoid some of those items.:p
     
  16. parksquijada
    Joined: Aug 6, 2008
    Posts: 316

    parksquijada
    Member
    from norcal

     
  17. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

  18. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    The thing I keep in mind when I have to conform to NHRA rules is just about every rule has had somebodys BLOOD spilt, BONES BROKE, SKIN BURNED or LIFE LOST ! It helps me keep a positive attitude:D Maybe if they put a drivers name on each rule we would be more likely to accept them. Rocky
     
  19. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,957

    97
    Member

    What's the idea behind three carburettors only ? Is that an NHRA rule ?

    16. Era appropriate carburetors only (3 MAXIMUM), reasonably stock appearing, two barrels or fewer each. Flash Shield or Scoop Required. No modern Holley, Edelbrock, modular, aftermarket units or four-barrels.
     
  20. FANTASY FACTORY
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 256

    FANTASY FACTORY
    Member

    Just a FYI. Raceway Park, AKA E-Town here in the north east appears to have embraced nostagia on a weekly basis, friday nights and all day sat on the 1/8 mile track in being dedicated to pre 59 vehiclles and pre 65 cycles. my intersst in HA/GR has been reignited now that i wont be building just a trophy car, I am back in. they have a link and contact ifo on theier info bar under "MOTORSPEEDWAY" banner
    'http://www.racewaypark.com/
     
  21. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    OOPS, That was from another draft I had:eek: Thanks for catching it! Rocky
     
  22. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,969

    Rand Man
    Member

    The man that owns the HAMB and HA/GR wrote the following, last week:

    "It would be better to simply have the official rules and then at the bottom clearly state the additional California amendments."

    It would show a lot of respect to our leader, to do as he asks. It wouldn't be that hard to edit your doc, to list the HAMB rule, then print your ammendment or interpretation under each rule. An example of this is when cities take a national code and create local ordinances.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
  23. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    No disrespect intended, but I'm paying for my Build Reference Sheet to hand out for FREE and I just got them on one simple page. I hoped Ryan would approve a NHRA friendly description of the rules. He didn't, I understand and 'am OK with his decision. Thanx for the input Randy, Rocky
     
  24. mudflap261
    Joined: Oct 24, 2005
    Posts: 588

    mudflap261
    Member
    from tulsa

    youmight want to consider useing the automotive carbs or some will want to use motorcycle/ air craft carbs .allready run into this when i redid the sdra rules
     
  25. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    Thanks 'flap but that would be changing the rules:eek: I agree on defining the carbs and number allowable but I'm just now getting the "tar & features" off:D Rocky
     
  26. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,308

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Hey Rocky, I thought it was "tar & feathers".:D

    Just take a shower in kerosene and they will slide right off.
     
  27. Old6rodder
    Joined: Jun 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,529

    Old6rodder
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from SoCal
    1. HA/GR owners group

    No sweat Rocky,

    I'm putting together a set listed seperately (I'm lazier'n you are) and folks can use whichever works for'em. :rolleyes:

    I don't have any tar left anyway, I quit smoking 34 years ago ..... ;)
    No feathers either. Hell, I'm lucky to still have my hair.
     
  28. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,920

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    My "D" average in High School is showing:D
    Thanks for the support guys:cool:
     
  29. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,969

    Rand Man
    Member

    I can print off a good lot of copies FREE at my work. I think it is a good idea to ammend the rules to fit your local needs, rather than just re-writing the rules to fit your needs. A total re-write looks like you've split off into another faction, and we need unity. We could set a good precedent here. I do support the west coast builders. I like the five point roll cage and better overall safety. We just have to go about making these changes in a way that puts the HAMB first and other sanctions later. (insert smiley face here)
     
  30. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,308

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    :eek: A bald bird!!:p
     

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