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Would a transverse engine dragster avoid wheelstand?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by oldandnew, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. oldandnew
    Joined: Nov 15, 2012
    Posts: 16

    oldandnew
    Member
    from FL

    Something like this:
    [​IMG]

    Of course the engine must be placed so that its rotation counteracts its trend to wheelstand.

    Would you be able to cut off and throw away the wheelie bars?
    Would this layout actually help traction?

    Lets ignore the added transmission friction and weight for a moment.
     
  2. Perrorojo
    Joined: Feb 25, 2011
    Posts: 357

    Perrorojo
    Member

    No. traction, center of gravity and torque don't care.
     
  3. Why don't you talk to the man pointing in the photo........he only ran it a few times..
     
  4. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,747

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Looks like they did.
     

  5. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 27,004

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    who doesn't like a good wheelstand?
     
  6. ronnieroadster
    Joined: Sep 9, 2004
    Posts: 865

    ronnieroadster
    Member

    Must be a slow day posting?
     
  7. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,922

    Fenders
    Member

    How about a transverse engine way up front with front wheel drive.... ?
     
  8. This is all that needs to be said about this subject!
     
  9. Dynaflash_8
    Joined: Sep 24, 2008
    Posts: 3,023

    Dynaflash_8
    Member
    from Auburn WA

    nope. Look at all the front engine guys still doing wheelstands.
     
  10. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,747

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    And the motorcycles..
     
  11. Barn Find
    Joined: Feb 2, 2013
    Posts: 2,317

    Barn Find
    Member
    from Missouri

    I think it would make it (infinitesimally) worse. In addition to the torque tending to lift the left side of the motor, the gyroscopic action of the rotating crank and flywheel would provide less resitance to wheelies in this plane than convnetional placement.
     
  12. 49ratfink
    Joined: Feb 8, 2004
    Posts: 18,082

    49ratfink
    Member
    from California

    [​IMG]

    Don is saying "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time"
     
  13. That's how things worked back in the day, trial and error! Big didn't have the luxury of logging into a site like this and asking whether it would work or not, he went out and did it!


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  14. Crafty
    Joined: Jun 26, 2002
    Posts: 240

    Crafty
    Member
    from UK

  15. GTS225
    Joined: Jul 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,191

    GTS225
    Member

    Seems to my memory that he couldn't keep gears together in the trans. Kept shelling them out after only a couple passes, but I don't have his personal phone number, either.

    Roger
     
  16. Rickybop
    Joined: May 23, 2008
    Posts: 7,186

    Rickybop
    Member
    from Michigan

    Man, some of you guys are so full of shit...lol. It's a valid question. Somewhat theoretical, but it's an interesting thought. Think about the way a powerful dragster lifts the front-left of the car during a launch. There's a load of torque there. We aint talkin' about a wimpy little motorcycle engine, either. Obviously, it'd have some affect. The breaking trans gears issue aside, the way Mr. Garlits had his set up, it would add to the inclination of the car to lift the front, especially just off the line. To offset that tendency, the engine would have to be situated with the "front" of the engine facing the left side of the car. But I suspect that it might also tend to unload some weight from the rear tires and lessen traction. How much? I don't know. Maybe not an appreciable amount. But you can't deny physics.
     
  17. 296ardun
    Joined: Feb 11, 2009
    Posts: 4,398

    296ardun
    Member

    It is a good question---saw a number of sidewinders run, never saw one wheelstand...they had other problems, though. Chain drive breakage was common, but handling was also an issue, because one wheel, the one next to the drive chain, got better traction than did the other, way on the other side of the axle. So early sidewinders tended to plane when they ran, especially when they ran nitro. They vanished a long time ago.
     
  18. Garlits side winder experiment was an attempt
    to use engine torque to load the rear tires harder.

    Opposite of the original question.
     




  19. Can't argues with that.
     
  20. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I agree. Also gotta mention, Garlits wasn't the first to try this, not by a LOOOOONG shot. The Kessler & Gammill Olds powered Crossley comp coupe is the earliest that springs to mind, around '55/'56, but I wouldn't want to bet the farm that was the first. Others that spring to mind are the Paul Nicolini car that Chrisman wound up involved with, the Magwinder that followed that car, there was a later Desoto powered chain drive sidewinder from back east,Art Malone had one, and around 1971, Chrisman had a Mustang funny car with a side-mounted cammer, and there was a sidewinder Challenger FC from southern California around the same time. The first car that Nicolini sold to Chrisman/Joe Mailliard was probably the most successful.
     
  21. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Yup. Axle bending issues were common as well.
     
  22. If it worked, wouldn't they be doing it today on all the cars?
     
  23. oldandnew
    Joined: Nov 15, 2012
    Posts: 16

    oldandnew
    Member
    from FL

    Thanks for the reply.
    Please elaborate I'm confused.

    Can't you turn the engine around as to have launch counter-torque push the car nose down?

    I've also thought of that.
    If you got an engine not THAT powerful for the sticky tires maybe you would like transverse engine to promote wheelstand thus sending more traction to the rear, where it matters.

    Of course if engine power increases this gets counterproductive as you'll have to lift off the throttle to both avoid flipping over from wheelstanding and to avoid the increased aerodynamic resistance wheelies cause.

    As for chain or gears breaking there was a car with both engine crank ends bolted directly to each wheel. i.e. the front crank end where pulleys are was bolted to one wheel, the rear crank where clutches are, bolted to the other wheel.

    Of course the engine was aligned with the rear axle line.

    I believe that car was Merlin V-12 powered.
    Couldn't find pictures of it now.

    Ahh the crazy 60s.
    Wish I was born earlier to see the madness.

    They might not be faster than conventional longitudinal setups.

    Its would be just for fun, and to try make the cars more streetable by not needing wheelie bars.
     
  24. n.z.rodder
    Joined: Nov 18, 2008
    Posts: 1,016

    n.z.rodder
    Member

    As for chain or gears breaking there was a car with both engine crank ends bolted directly to each wheel. i.e. the front crank end where pulleys are was bolted to one wheel, the rear crank where clutches are, bolted to the other wheel.

    WHAT, I'm no engineer but I'll call BS on that one, as soon as it's fired up it'll be on the move.
    Advances in chassis engineering, suspension and clutch means you don't have to crazy things like this anymore.

    Scotty
     
  25. Barn Find
    Joined: Feb 2, 2013
    Posts: 2,317

    Barn Find
    Member
    from Missouri

    I think someone already addressed turning the engine around 180 degrees. You'd ratehr lift the fornt wheels than the rear wheels.

    As for the gyroscope-that's highly theoretical on my part and the real effect should be insignificant. Think of the flywheel like the wheel on a motorcycle. As long as it is spinning it wants to stay in the same orientation. I'm guessing the real purpose of the experiment was to reduce friction and power or weight loss through the pinion and convnetional gears. Just a guess.
     
  26. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,747

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

  27. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,473

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

    Another even weirder sidewinder from about the same time was Art Malone's. Had a hollow sprint car style axle stuck right through the lifter valley with a clutch can inside the left rear wheel and a chain connecting it to the crank. Some of his reasons were that torque acts equally on each side of car, more weight on tires and added control/ better visibility. Had a 265" wheelbase.

    AM 003 (612x800).jpg

    AM 002 (612x800).jpg
     
  28. Muttley
    Joined: Nov 30, 2003
    Posts: 18,456

    Muttley
    Member

    Who cares. Dragster W/engine behind driver ='s not interested.
     
  29. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,715

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Here are some pics of earlier sidewinders.
     

    Attached Files:

  30. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,715

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

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