Steve, Thank you for looking over it. That makes sense to me. I got a bit lost as I read further into the thread. Maybe you can help me clarify a couple things. If I understood correct, if my on/off switch is rated for 30A then I can wired my ignition on/off switch and push button right off the solenoid and used the "I" terminal on the solenoid to power the coil and bypass the fuse block all together. Unswitched continuous load + Largest intermittent = 19.6 Switched continuous load + Largest intermittent = 23 Would this layout be correct for the above? Now here is where I got confused. I don't know the rating of the '32 Ford column drop and read that simple on/off ignition switches, without accesory tab, are typically 20A, is that correct? How can I determine what my on/off switch is rated for? I couldn't find anything online that would indicate the rating of the '32 column drop. If I assume it is 20A then, Once I added my unswitched continuous load + largest intermittent load, I came up with 19.6, which is still good for a 20A on/off switch; however when I added the switched continuous load + largest intermittent load I came up with 23, which exceeds the 20A load switch capacity. Now, based on the above math and if I am understanding correctly....it looks like I would need a relay, like you showed in page 6, diagram #4. Based on my 42.6 at 125% = 53.25 then I can use a 70amp relay I admit, when it comes to relays I am completely lost....I don't understand how they work or how to wire them in. At my best attempt ....is this how you would wire one in order to work with the 20A ignition on/off switch?
The I terminal is only powered when the solenoid is activated during cranking. You should re-draw the battery cable routing. Battery cable from battery to cut-off switch, then on to the solenoid. Then wires from there powering the ign switch, fuse panel, and relay.
Just for clarification, there are 2 "I" terminals in the above diagrams. 1. The I terminal of the starter solenoid is only powered when the solenoid is activated during cranking. 2. The I terminal of the ignition switch is activated in the "RUN' position and "START" (cranking) position .
^^^ True in most cases; but on the other hand there are only two positions on his Ford column drop ignition switch; on and off.
Rich, I hope this works better One question, the relay, battery, cut off switch, and fuse panel will all be next to each other under the seat. Could I power the relay straight from the battery or cut off switch terminals to avoid running a wire from the solenoid or the on/off switch to it?
OK, you're getting closer, but not quite there yet.... You're probably right in being concerned about the switch rating. As OEM, probably all it switched was the ignition and the excitation to the charging system, and the latter load would disappear once the car starts. If you're planning on a one-wire alternator, that load won't be present. Gauges in those days were mechanical with the exception of an ammeter if present, and those don't consume any power unless the the car is running or has a load applied (i.e. you left the lights on). But this can be simplified further so lets apply some logic to this... Ignition-switched circuits exist for two reasons; one, to control circuits that must be 'hot' to operate the vehicle. This include gauges, electric fuel pumps, excitation for a charging system if needed and anything else that is needed to run the vehicle that may or may not have a separate switch controlling it and that would use power whether the vehicle is running or not. Two, any 'convenience' items or intermittent circuits, such as radio, heater, wipers, turn signals, etc, again items that would use power if not switched off when the vehicle isn't running. Now all or most of these will have a separate switch but to prevent battery drain if you miss turning one off when you stop the vehicle, they get ignition switched. I live in the rainy Northwest, so common items left 'on' when I shut off the car is the radio, heater and wipers. Turn signals are switched because it's easy to reach into a shut-off vehicle and bump the lever, they'll then happily flash until you run out of battery. But it's very rare that exterior lighting is ignition switched.... So lets move the fog light over to the 'unswitched' side. OK, now you've got two switches you have to keep track of but you've removed 5 amps of load off the ignition switch. At a max load of 23 amps, I'd be very tempted to run that through the switch eliminating the relay, and here's my reasoning... What kills switches isn't particularly the max load, but the load under make/break conditions. They're designed to withstand a certain amount of arc current when switched. Exceed that current on a regular basis and badly burned contacts result sooner or later. But applying additional load to an already-closed switch doesn't produce an arc. You can't get crazy with this, but in this case we're only talking a 15% increase above a 20 amp rating (if that's what the switch is good for). Unless you're one of 'those' guys that drives around with a turn signal on for miles... LOL. There's two reasons not to like this idea. One, if you're paranoid about the switch rating. Two, if at some later point you decide you want to add any additional switched loads, you're probably out of capacity. So if you still want a relay, here's the revised drawing. Note that you no longer need a large relay; a standard 30 amp will be fine... A few more items I'll note. One, if your electrical system and battery are all under the seat, make sure you environmentally seal the battery from the rest of the system. All batteries outgas corrosive fumes (yes, even the so-called sealed ones), you don't want corrosion on any connections downstream from the battery posts. Two, if you're using one of those battery-post-mounted cut-off switches, don't attach any power feeds there. Either take them to the solenoid or install a rated terminal for a junction point under the seat and away from the battery. Basically, any terminal with a 3/8" bolted connection will be adequate for this. I would recommend this as it will significantly reduce feeder circuit lengths and reduce voltage drop in those. I'd connect all of the power wires at this point; power to the ignition switch, power to the 30 terminal on the relay, and the unswitched half of the fuse panel.
Steve, You make it so easy, even I get it I've learned so much in the last few days. Thank you! You got me thinking about my battery and fuse panel location. I was planning on using an Odyssey PC680 battery and had no clue about outgas corrosive fumes...I might be better off installing the fuse panel behind the dash and keep the panel and battery away. I think wiring might be easier too, since some runs will be shorter. I do have a question on fuse blocks/panels. I was looking at the link you suggested for the Bussman ganged fuse panels but noticed they all are individual panels and appear not to have locations to hang, for lack of better word, relays or a flasher. Let me explain what I am after.... Looking online, I noticed that most pre-made wiring harness have these "all-in-one" panels...Similar to the one in the pictures below. Just as an example, I found the complete harness below in ebay for $28 w/free shipping....After all I've learned and read here I can only imagine the lack of quality this thing most have; however, I do like the fuse block itself but haven't been able to find anywhere that sells these. It has a location for relays and a flasher at each corner. It would give me a place to nicely mount the 2 relays I will be using (one for the panel and one for the horn) and a place to put the flasher for the turn signals and keep everything nice and clean. Do you know of a place where I could buy something similar of good quality?
First, don't be so quick to move the panels. In terms of keeping voltage drop losses to a bare minimum, that's a great location. Now, keep in mind that pretty much all racing governing bodies require that batteries installed inside a vehicle have to be in a sealed box vented to outside. Are you sure that you want a box that contains enough power to produce a really good fire or even an explosion separated from your ass by only a seat cushion? You can leave it under the seat, but make sure at least one side of the enclosure is open to outside and put a cover over it to keep ALL fumes from getting inside. As to those nifty panels, all I've seen are proprietary parts built by/for the vendors. You can find add-on subpanels for relays and such if you go with components, but it'll be separate parts. Marine electrical suppliers will be a good place to look as those have to pass muster with the Coast Guard so they will have a spec they need to meet. Or anybody who supplies commercial transport, like buses or large trucks. Again, they'll have a spec they'll have to meet. I'm going to climb up on my soapbox for a minute... Passenger and light truck automotive electrical is the only segment of the electrical industry that has no governing body for life safety. Sad to say, but true. The OEMs are self-governing and if they screw up badly enough the feds will force a recall and/or the lawyers will come out (remember the GM ignition switch fiasco?). But as hobbyists, we're on our own. Vendors can claim anything they want about suitability of their parts and there's no one calling BS if they lie. Your first awareness of this may be when your car burns to the ground. If you buy parts from vendors that also supply the commercial market, you're generally pretty safe as long as you apply them correctly. This is not to say that all 'hot rod' harness/parts suppliers are lying bastards, but remember that they don't produce millions of harnesses a year so nearly all of them produce a 'generic' type harness designed for 'average' loads. Most vendors make an effort to supply a quality product, but that doesn't mean their product is the best design for your application. If they tell you that you need to add multiple relays for some circuits, that's almost always a sure sign that the basic harness design is inadequate for your application and they're band-aiding it with relays. Probably 90% of the relays installed to 'fix' dim headlights wouldn't be needed if the basic harness design was right. My main beef with the aftermarket harness suppliers is they mimic the OEMs in circuit wire sizes or go even smaller. As the OEMs size everything to the bare minimum, if you want something a bit better don't look at them unless they offer optional sizes. With all that said, an aftermarket harness may be fine in this case as it's a very simple, minimalist harness. What I would do is ask what size wire each circuit is supplied with and see if that will match up without degrading your voltage drop numbers.
Very interesting. I would have never imagine, maybe I never paid attention before, that Manufacturers had so much wiggle room and little accountability. A naive question....What type of requirements does a box need to meet to be considered a sealed box for a battery? is it good as long it is air tight, as is it just trying to keep fumes out or does it have to be more strict; perhaps, water tight or fire rated?
You'd be surprised at what can be done with little or no consequences. Even in the 'regulated' parts of the industry, as an example public power utilities are generally exempt from code requirements; they do stuff that if I had done it as a non-utility employee I'd lose my license. The 'get around' in most cases is as long as the installation is posted as 'qualified personnel only' they can do whatever they want. As to the battery mounting, it's not that tough. I'd recess the battery tray into the floor, with the part below the floor 'open' to allow fumes to dissipate to the outside and use a metal cover to re-seal the floor. The metal will give an more-than-adequate fire rating. Gasket the cover with something, and use rubber grommets for the battery cables. Batteries outgas hydrogen and it can be very explosive, particularly in a confined space. A tip; have the tray and cover heavily powdercoated (thick!). Powdercoat works very well at resisting battery corrosion, better than any paint I've tried.
What would make a battery smoke? A short circuit I think. What about over-charging? Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
If your interest ever gets peaked, check out FMVSS regs, I think there are some listed on Wikipedia. There is the full listing through one of the .gov sites whose name escapes me at the moment. Auto manufactures are self-governed/regulated, they have a vested interest in making sure the vehicles are not death traps as they are liable for any safety defects. Government mandates a certain safety criteria via the FMVSS but it does not cover everything. You never see anything about how many stars a vehicle gets in rear end crash testing. Is it steaming off the electrolyte or is it actual smoke(burning)? Short circuit across the terminals would overheat the battery and terminals but that should not happen and unless the starter is stuck on there should be no reason for any overloading as the fusible links, circuit breakers, and/or fuses should have tripped. Over charging usually causes some electrolyte leakage and rotten egg smell before you see steaming of the electrolyte. What type of battery are you using? Wet cell lead-acid? Story on what is happening/happened?
I can only think of three causes for a smoking battery that wouldn't be obviously caused by external forces; in order of likelihood... One, gross overcharging i.e. too high a rate/voltage for too long. But as Mike says, you should smell this well before any smoke appears. One scenario where that may not be noticed would be a long-distance drive with a malfunctioning voltage regulator. Two, a broken/loose battery post. The break can be internal and not obvious. Any post movement relative to the case is a sign of this. I have seen these smoke... Three, an internal short. Least likely, but possible.
My son drove my coupe to a cruise night. Battery started smoking on the way home. We have had trouble with the battery draining down overnight. I had this battery tested good recently.
Sounds like an internal short, could be caused by sulfation. These can be tricky; it won't start the car, put a jump on it and it starts right up, drive it around and it'll start right back up and test fine... until it sits a while. This was easy to find on the old non-sealed batteries. Put a charge on them, then immediately check the electrolyte with a hydrometer or turkey baster. If you found 'stuff' floating in the electrolyte, it was sulfated and time for a replacement.
I am working on my turn signals and a few questions have come up...hoping I can get some help I am planning on using the Stat 700, which is a 5 wire unit. the goal is restore it completely and run all new wiring to it. I will be using dual filaments bulbs, 1157s, in each corner. The front should be not problem as it will have a dedicated wire but the back will be sharing the stop/turn light. After some research and reading several posts, I was planning on using a non powered 3 to 2 wire light converter. Seem to be the easiest of all the the solutions. This one to be exact... That is until I read this post.... https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1207486-signal-stat-700-turn-swith-control.html As I understood, because the trailer adapter works with much lower voltage and both turn signal indicators at the switch work simultaneously then it activates the turn signal on both sides of the car, resulting in both sides flashing at the same time. The solution is posted there as well; however, that solution resulted on the switch indicators working backwards....left to right and right to left. Further research let me to learn that using 4 - 30 amp relays might be a better option. After trying to understand the different versions of diagrams, I believe this is the right one for my application. Does it look correct? I am a bit confused with the power coming from the "L" side of the flasher. I understood, it connects to all 4 relays at terminal "87" but does it still feed the turn signal switch at the power wire? Couple larger views Here is how I understood the wiring should be Power from "L" side of flasher to all "87" terminal, in all relays, and to power wire at turn signal All "86" terminals to ground Each "85" goes to the individual directional wire coming from the turn signal switch Stop light switch goes to the "87a" terminal for the 2 rear relays only Each "30" terminal goes to each turn signal/stop light If I use this set up, will the directional lights at the turn signal switch work properly? Will the problem of back feeding power and both turn signals flashing at the same time be avoided?
The diagram will work, but you don't need the relays for the front lights at all, just the rear stop/turn. Wire the fronts directly to the turn switch.
Actually, you could simplify that diagram even further. You don't need to take separate power to the relays, just jumper the 85 terminal to the 87, the same power that runs the relay coil can supply the light also
Sorry, I take it all back.... that diagram in the original version will work correctly with one change. I plead a very hard day yesterday and not enough sleep... The change needed is to to move the turn switch power feed to the 'X' terminal on the flasher. The only downside will be if the turn switch has an indicator light, it won't flash.
So get rid of the relays for the front. Easy enough... The turn signal switch does have indicator lights. They don't indicate left or right but rather front or rear. I am assuming that's why both lights flash when you are signaling left or right. ...so do I leave the power to the turn signal switch as is, or do I switch the flasher and do "L" to fuse and "X" to turn signal switch and relays?? I got lost...
If I was messing with that 700 I would take the indicator bulbs out and mount some LEDs in their place wired to the front lights. Relay set-up won't work with only two relays. You will have to run power into the switch instead of the L side of the flasher.
Here is what I did to one of those 700's previously; other than I used the signal switch to ground the relays; but if preferred the signal switch can be used to power the relays with the 85 terminals grounded instead of powered.
The diagram as posted will work as long as you feed the turn switch off the 'X' terminal (before the flasher) rather than the 'L' terminal. You need all four relays to prevent the front lights from being on when not being used as turns or operating with the brake lights. I suspect the indicator lights on the switch will still light up but won't flash. Depending on how much current they draw, you may need to disconnect them. If both sides flash when the switch is turned either way and it's wired as noted, disconnect the lights in the switch.
Thank you for sharing. Rich. That looks great! So you used the wire that was supplying power to switch and ground it and power through the "85"terminal? That could actually be easier for the rest of my layout By any chance, do you have any pictures of the mounted LEDs? I think I found some online that could work great in that small area.
If a wire is too small for the load placed on it, does the wire itself become a resistor and will it's temperature be measurably higher?
Every wire is a resistor...how much it will heat up, depends on the size of the wire, and the current it's carrying. 18 gauge wire carrying 30 amps will get hot, might melt the insulation, or even the wire itself. 10 gauge wire carrying 30 amps will probably not get warm enough that you can notice.
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