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Wireing 220v for new welder! Electricians/welders speak up.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by marcello7x, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. marcello7x
    Joined: Oct 9, 2009
    Posts: 171

    marcello7x
    Member
    from Boston

    I just got a new welder on ebay. Clarke 180en [the model made in italy] I know they went out of business, but supposedly they're still ok in Uk, and some parts can be replaced from other brands.

    So i need to run a new breaker and wire to the location i will be building my model a frame at. How much will the distance of the wire to the outlet affect performance? I know that since its 220v and 30 amps, vs my 115v 20 amp welder, the loss in the wire will be less due to the higher voltage. But there will be losses.

    Anyone experience a great loss in power with a welder far from the breaker? Was it with true 10gauge 30 amp wire? Or extension cored???


    Thanks,
    Marcello
     
  2. People don't usually like to recommend/tell somebody how to wire 220V circuits - as we don't know your knowledge, skill level or capabilities. So -- instead of getting you killed, it is just easier to say "hire a qualified electrician" (which is probably the thing to do unless you know your stuff).

    With that said, here is a calculator that can help. Hopefully you know that you need to size everything to handle a higher load than your max --> wire sizes, breakers, etc . . . and you need to understand your duty cycle.

    Here yah go - I'll defer to experts on the rest :cool:

    http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm
     
  3. touchdowntodd
    Joined: Jan 15, 2005
    Posts: 4,068

    touchdowntodd
    Member

    if you have an electrician thats a good friend have him help you.. im gonna be doin that soon in my garage as well..

    if you dont.. i would honestly hire it out.. besides the danger, if you dont do it correctly it wont pass code whenever that comes up
     
  4. Sounds like you may need to run power to a remote breaker box.
    Anyhow if you have to ask hire it done or at the least supervised and inspected by a certified electrician!
    Bill.
     

  5. 39 All Ford
    Joined: Sep 15, 2008
    Posts: 1,531

    39 All Ford
    Member
    from Benton AR

    Simple circuits are not that difficult, but if done improperly the results can be deadly...

    To answer the other question, I use my little 180 Miller on a 60' 10 ga extension cord all the time without issue, however the wiring to the outlet where I plug the cord in is huge compared to the load.

    One rule for the extension is thaT IT IS ALWAYS UNPLUGGED WHEN NOT IN USE.
     
  6. bobjob55
    Joined: May 23, 2009
    Posts: 327

    bobjob55
    Member

    OR ,,,,, you can go down to home depot and ask the expert there .... that way if you get fried ,, it's not our fault ....
     
  7. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    Here's some advice from an industrial electrician: Hire an electrician. It won't cost much and will be money well spent for peace of mind and your personal safety, as well as the safety of your family.

    You really didn't give much information about what you planned to do so I'll refrain from giving any wiring advice, but I will address your question about distance.

    Voltage drop is a condition that occurs when a wire is too small to carry the voltage over a long distance. In my experience we have never calculated voltage drop under 100' as it always comes up minimal. Remember that the NEC (National Electrical Code) is a set of minimums, meaning you can ALWAYS use a larger wire than they tell you. This is one case where bigger really is better. :D

    I'm also not a big fan of extension cords. When possible always plug high amperage devices directly to an outlet. Extension cords take a lot of abuse due to their nature, I check mine regularly for any sign of abrasion or wear. Throw away or repair any cord that shows any of it's inner lining through the outer jacket. Do the same for any cord that has any lumps in it, these usually indicate a break or fraying of either the protective lining or the wire itself.

    Bottom line, if you aren't 100% sure of what you are doing when it comes to house wiring, hire an electrician.
     
  8. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    No offense, but the box store "expert" isn't someone I'd trust with my life... just sayin'.
     
  9. Deuce Daddy Don
    Joined: Apr 27, 2008
    Posts: 5,127

    Deuce Daddy Don
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Another bit of advice is to have the electrician install several outlets for your welder at convienant (yours) locations around the garage. I did, & it makes for better accessability!!
    Question----Why would you buy an off breed welder from Italy, when you have good American made products locally?---Such as Miller--Hobart--Lincoln.

    Welding since 1951----------Don
     
  10. creepr
    Joined: May 13, 2009
    Posts: 106

    creepr
    Member
    from dallas,ga

    as the owner of a electrical company electrodude is right on spot. Just hire a pro and stay away from any home depot advise!
     
  11. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 29,086

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You can do this to save a few bucks and that is run your own conduit especially if you need to run it underground.

    I did that when I had my brother (pro electrician) wire the garage for 220 for my Lincoln 175. It took him less than an hour to pull the three wires and hook things up then. Since I ran the wiring underground I used 1-1/4 plastic conduit and the 50 ft run cost me about 30 bucks when I bought the conduit at an ag irrigation supply store.
     
  12. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    I just realizes something: you're welder is from Italy: what voltage and frequency does it operate at? Most foreign countries operate at 50 HZ while the United States operates at 60 HZ, also the voltage rating is usually different also. You may find out that purchasing the adapter/transformer to run your welder will eat up any savings you were hoping to realize. I'm not positive about the voltage difference, you'd better look into this further yourself.
     
  13. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 29,086

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The Clarke 180 is sold by the local ag supply store here. http://www.big-r.com/t_clarkepwr.html So they most likely make a US systems Compatible machine. Repairs and parts may be iffy though.

    I think there are several US based vendors selling Clarke welders on Ebay though.
    This may not be the vendor but it should be the welder he bought.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Clarke-180E...md=ViewItem&pt=BI_Welders&hash=item439e71d5d3

    Miller, Lincoln and Hobart are all controlled by the same parent company as far as I can figure and except for some obsolete units you can still get repairs and parts at most welding supply houses.

    I'm pretty hardcore about finding out how I am going to find parts and service for anything I buy before I decide to buy it. It makes things easier down the road.
     
  14. marcello7x
    Joined: Oct 9, 2009
    Posts: 171

    marcello7x
    Member
    from Boston

    Thanks guys, My main concern was current drop.

    Im not a certified electrician, but i do have a degree in electrical engineering, have worked under a pro engineer for a while, now moved on to making radio frequency power supplies up to 5kilowatts. If you think a regular shock hurts, wait till you get a radio freq shock, it burns from your bone outward!

    My buddy is a cert electrician and is going to give a had when i hook up my wiring to the breaker box, i'll be doing the rest without him, aka running the wire.

    Electrodude, the 100' comment is exactly what i was looking for!
     
  15. brad chevy
    Joined: Nov 22, 2009
    Posts: 2,627

    brad chevy
    Member

    In our truck-4-bay shop our 220 outlets for welder are at least 40 feet from breaker box with no problem because it was installed properly,spend the bucks ,be safe and remember the insurance company,burn place down with faulty wiring being the cause and no insurance . as far as the drop in voltage is concerned ,right guage wire is a must.
     
  16. babblewon
    Joined: Aug 19, 2007
    Posts: 109

    babblewon
    Member
    from cali

    Think I read your question correctly if so I agree in saying voltage drop under 100' isn't going to be that big of a deal. I'm a electrician and with what your wanting I would install a 50 amp dedicated breaker and run one outlet somewhere easy to access. Then get some SO cord and 2 plugs one male one female from home depot and make yourself a long enough pigtail to move the welder where you want. 8 gauge wire rated 50 amps, 6 gauge 65 amps. That's copper wire. Get 3 conductor (hot,hot,ground) don't need a nuetral unless you have digital light display. Hope that helps
     
  17. carcrazyjohn
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 4,844

    carcrazyjohn
    Member
    from trevose pa

    10 wire and a long run is no good 6 guage wire and 60 amp .Should do the trick ,Make sure your panel box can handle the load and of course a homerun .....
     
  18. I'm no electrician, I'm a journeyman carpenter. I ran about 100 ft of wire from the house to the shop. I used Carlon plastic conduit and 6 GA wire, 3 conductors to a 50 amp subpanel in the shop. I added another breaker in the main panel at the house for the shop. I did it myself. It really isn't all that difficult, but caution is required. Turn off the main panel before you stick your fingers in there. It's been 20 years and I've never popped the breaker at the main panel, even with the compressor running while I'm welding. Like everyone said, if you're uncomfortable with electricity, get a pro.
     
  19. You can always have the box ran and then just hard wire your welding machine to the box. Carl
     
  20. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    That almost makes sense. Almost. There's nothing wrong with "10 wire", I've ran 20 gauge wire over 2500' before: it's all dependent on the load.

    Without knowing the nameplate data on the welder it's impossible for anyone here to determine exactly what wire is sufficient for the job. Also, in some states (mine included), direct burial wire is required even if you run a conduit. This and many other reasons are why you should really have a qualified electrician do your electrical work. A previous reply touched on something very important too: your insurance will not cover ANY fire if it finds illegal or substandard electrical work has been done on your home. Why risk it? The OP here already said he's going to have an electrician help him, and that's pretty damn smart on his part.

    I won't go off on my standard rant again, suffice it to say people can and will die from substandard electrical work, I wouldn't want that on my head, would you?
     
  21. carcrazyjohn
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 4,844

    carcrazyjohn
    Member
    from trevose pa

    Mine is hooked up and ran for 60 amp And 10 wire would melt ,I only hooked up a 60 and that is perfect for my welder and aircompressor I plug and unplug them and my run is about 100 feet .No voltage drop .10 wire can have voltage drop especially over a long run and also amperage draw can have a factor .....
     
  22. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    I didn't mean to be rude carcrazyjohn, you do need 6 gauge on a 60A breaker. My point was that we don't know what size breaker the OP needs. Voltage drop is the same formula no matter what the size of the wire. Amp draw is what we initially base the wire size on (table 310.16), then voltage drop is factored in. You also have to factor voltage drop if you have three or more current carrying conductors in a single conduit. Electrical work in itself isn't all that difficult, being sure you follow the National and local codes is where it gets tricky...
     

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