I'm searching for answers (and I can already see the smart-assed ones coming). Subject car is a '63 T-bird running stock 14" steel rims with radials, has had brake drums replaced but not swedged to the center hubs up front (i.e. can pull the drums off and hub/bearings stay in place). The drums do sit flat against the hub and there is very little radial "slop" that I can tell. Four years ago I was driving the car around Kansas City for a few weekend club events and such - one trip of 60+ miles one way to Warrensburg resulted in the left front wheel's lug nuts coming loose and the result was a trashed wheel (wallowed-out lug holes). Changed the rim, tightened the lug nuts with a breaker bar/socket, no big deal. I haven't done much driving over the past few years in the car, but over the past weekend decided to go for a 40+ mile one-way drive to check out a car show. Have taken several short (less than 20 miles one-way) trips since moving back to outside of Omaha, with no hint of a loosening wheel. Lo and behold, about 5 miles away from the show, the car starts shaking from the left front wheel. Long story short the lug nuts were coming loose. Before anyone jumps on the "torque the things down regularly" bandwagon, let me restate that I typically will use a breaker bar to loosen/tighten my nuts to the point that they make that grunting/squeaking noise versus using an impact wrench. I like to think that I'm doing things correctly, using a star pattern to torque the nuts down at least two-three times. But apparently there's something not quite right if I've had the same wheel develop loosening lug nuts after nearly an hour's worth of sustained driving around 65 mph. I'm well aware that the wheel is probably flexing because of the radial vs bias-ply tire it's running on. But why would the lug nuts come loose?: 1. Rim is not seating fully against the hub/drum, allowing it to wobble ever so slightly? 2. Lug nut taper is too deep, not allowing nuts to fully seat against the holes in the rim, with resultant vibration loosening them over time? I need to pull the rim off and compare how far the lug nut projects into the rim, or past the back face of the rim. If the nuts do stick out past the back side of the rim, then grinding back the depth of the taper so that they don't stick out might solve the problem. Has anyone else experienced this problem? I don't really think I should have to tighten my lug nuts every time I want to get behind the wheel and cruise.
Buy a torque wrench. Probably 80 ft lbs on that car. also do not lubricate the threads, just make sure they're clean and dry Do look a the nuts/studs, make sure the nuts are not bottoming. If the studs were replaced and the knurl sticks out too far the nut will bottom out and not hold the wheel tight.
It seems you are trying to do all the right things. One thing you might check into is to ensure the center pilot of the wheels is tight to the front hub, and pilot on rear axle, respectively. You say they are stock rims, so they should be. This is known as "hub centric". the wheel is kept centered by the tight fit in the center hole, so the lug nuts are only asked to do one thing, keep the wheel on the studs. Most times when aftermarket wheels are fitted, the pilot size of the rim is huge, so the wheel can be sold to fit on pretty much anything with that bolt pattern. Now the lug nuts are asked to keep the wheel on the car as well as hold it centered to hub. Lots of vehicles are running around like this and it does work, but IMO, the hub centric design makes alot more sense, and I try to ensure my vehicles keep this OEM design. Just something to think about.
I believe you have it in either # 1 or 2. Your wheel is not seated when the nuts are tight. It seems to have started with the new drums. So thats where I'd start. Is the drum fully seated or is it pulling down a little over time?
If those drums are supposed to be swedged to the hubs, then do it right. Also a torque wrench is better than "squeaking" tight.
Squeak also is often a result of elastic deformation Over torque can stretch the threads of the nut thinning them an changing the reliable torque surface
If you decided to do a "good thing" and use brand new lug nuts, that could be the problem as well. Between lug nuts, and wheel studs, there are a LOT of really crappy parts out there. Made in China junk. Using either is bad enough, but when you use BOTH, you're really in trouble. Soft metal, over large threads, easily stripped, etc. Find some made in the USA lug nuts, if this is the case.
You might also check there is no paint on the tapered seats of the rim (where the lug nuts sit) . A heavy lick of paint can cause the nuts to slip as the paint breaks down . .
i will ditto what mark has said here.. I bought NEW lug nuts that I destroyed during the first install.. maybe you have "bad" new parts.
Did you replace the wheel studs when you replaced the drums? If so, they might not have been fully seated on the hubs. So when you torque down the lug nuts, they torque down fine, but when you drive, it puts forces on the wheel and the wheel studs get closer to seating, but result in the lugnuts no longer being seated on the wheel itself, and they are now loose.
as stated above also verify the taper of the stud matches the taper of the rim. make sure the drum is seated fully on the hub as well . I have seem drums with incorrect center hole cause this .
ive had a similar problem. thought it was a bad tire giving me a slight wobble, then thought it was a bent rim. turned out it was junk lug nuts. i was using some chinese nut that looked cool (bullets). as i played with them i noticed not a single one seated right as they torqued down, allowing the rim to wobble and loosen them. as stated earlier, id really be looking at them lugnuts...real closely.
Make sure you have the correct lug nuts. Your studs should be 1/2 inch. Fords use a nut that is 13/16 inch. Mopar used a nut that is 3/4 inch. The Mopar nuts will bottom out on the drum. They will not tighten on the wheel correctly. The wheel will be almost tight enough. A small car can get away with it but a heavy T-bird will loosen the lug nuts.
When I worked at Ford, the proper torque for lug nuts was 85 to 100 Ft. Lbs. Your studs may have pulled threads if you have overtightened them several times. Support behind the stud with a piece of tubing and whack the old studs out on the bench. Use good quality studs and new nuts. A small dab of anti seeze is not a bad idea.
If this always happens on the same wheel, the wheel itself may have been loose at one time and the lug-seats are damaged. If you have another spare wheel, toss it on. I'd also get the drum staked to the hub and go with new studs. Just hope that the holes in the drum are still okay. The machine shop that presses them on will let you know. Bob
Had lugs come loose 3 times on my grocery getters, once after getting new tires and twice from a dealer. I check them every time they come back from the shops now.
If you have overtightened them by your Breaker Bar method you can stretch the stud to the point where is loses strength. Each time you tighten the lugs it makes it worse and the lug nuts will continually loosen. Eventually the studs will break and you will get a good workout chasing the front wheel down the freeway providing you don't wreck the car trying to stop it. personally I would get the drums staked to the hubs properly, use all new Dorman studs and new lug nuts. Torque them properly and you should be good to go.
Lets say you're tightening the lug nuts with a 4-way or a breaker bar. When the nuts get close to being tight,does the rim "crush" or "give" a little bit before it fully tightens,or,do the nuts just stop solid----? As mentioned above,it makes me think theres something going on with 'bottoming' before the wheel is actually against the drum/hub. Report your findings!
When you figure it out, please share. Stock steel wheels are really NOT prone to lugs coming loose. In fact they seem to get tighter over time. Very odd to have this problem on a steel wheel
well since you stated that 4 years ago when the first wheel came loose and ruined the lug holes i would think you could assume that the wheel isnt the problem and you say that you havent driven the car much over the last couple of years , could you have maybe started to take the wheel off at some point and maybe forgot to retighten the lugs? while it was sitting or maybe someone else loosened them without telling you for some unforeseen reason ? ive run unilugs and stock steel wheels and only have had my wheels come loose on me twice once with stock steel because i got in a hurry and forgot to fully tighten them after doing some front end work and once with unilug mags back when i was delivering pizzas LOOONG time ago from hitting too many speedbumps in appartment complexs and i use the same basic method of wheel tightening as you except i dont wait for the squeak of steel on steel i dont think you not having your drum staked to the hub is the problem i think either the knerls on the stud are protruding too far out towards the wheel or as you state maybe the lug has the wrong taper (i think its more the former) ive used ford lugnuts on mopars and mopars on fords and even have ran mopar rims on fords maybe a couple pics of your left front hub would help
could also be the taper of the wheel / nut mating surface, it will get boogered up over time, and when ya loose that taper on the wheel, the nuts back off.. that happens mostly on aluminum wheels though.
The Jalopy Journal
