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why ford ...........why

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by flynstone, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. And my Mother got rear ended in my Pinto on the freeway - she was doing about 20 due to traffic in front stopping for an accident and the Firebird that hit her was doing about 55 at time of impact according to the investigation. Nothing but a bent bumper and rear trunk panel. Just because mine didn't blow up, doesn't mean that others didn't - same with the Chevy trucks.
     
  2. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    None of these problems are really an issue on a run of the mill production engine.

    And thats what they all started out as.

    Production engines that were built down to a cost.

    They all have their own flaws....
     
  3. Metalshapes beet me to your responds. But that pretty much what I had to say as well.
     
  4. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Nobody said anything about "novice"- but you've said several things like this that weren't historically accurate

    "OK... When this engine was used in Formula 5000 racecars and Trans Am Boss Mustangs it had to get a cylinder head off a completely different engine to be able to compete.

    It had been in production for about 7 years at that point ( '69 ) and in the mid '60s Gurney had already got together with Weslake to build a superior head for it."

    Which is not historically correct- the small-block Ford was very successful in many racing arenas long before the Boss came out in '69, including a couple Trans-Am championships, FIA World Champion in '65, etc, all this has already been covered. You also said that the 289K didn't count, too rare- it wasn't particularly rare in those days, it was the basis for most of the road race engines, 289 Cobra and GT350's, and many Group 7 cars etc. Many more K engines were produced than K cars- they are rare these days, as many got used up racing, and the ones that are left are mostly in collectible cars that came with a K. As many of those racing cars were extremely light, the fact that the 289 was considerably lighter than a 327 or 365 Chebbie was very attractive, and it was fairly easy to get close to 400hp from a modified K engine and still be reliable with good torque band. I was there at many races to see it, saw a lot of USRRC, Trans-Am (and in the earlier days, "A Sedan"), Production and Can-Am races in person. Still have most of my programs from those races, including one from the "Glen 500" in '67, which was a special race for the Production-type cars, so it was all 427 and 289 Cobras, GT350's, Corvettes, E-Jaguars, Bugeyes etc. I know you would have loved it, some of the best hard-nosed racing around. One of the most hilarious ones I saw was at the Can-Am/Trans-Am at Mosport in '67- a Mustang (with one of those uncompetitive 289's on board) led the whole race, but the battle for second WAS the race- a 302 Camaro vs a Mini-Cooper. Lap after lap the Camaro driver tried everything to get past that Mini, dirt tracking through the corners, Mini coming through with one front wheel in the air- to those who didn't get to experience it, those race Mini's were ridiculously fast and fun to watch
    And yeah, it's kinda fun walking up to someone with a restored Lola T-70 MKIII at the Point and telling him yeah, I saw that car run at the Glen in '67, they look at you and give you that yeah sure look, then you show them the slide of the car with the date on it lol
    Another thing you would have loved at the Glen, was the fleet of black & gold GT350-H's parked in the pits- occasionally a hood would come off and an engine would go in one of the race cars, then get switched back after the race
    So I think we would have a ball together at the vintage races, I think I just have a few more grey hairs than you and was lucky enough to see the stuff run when new, and been personally involved with quite a few historic cars since the '70's- even got to tinker a bit with a Tunnel-Port 302 a few years ago

    Here's a few old crates that have my 427 engine parts in them- this one you might recognize the name on the roof, Fireball Roberts. The steel crank out of the 14:1 engine that used to be in my 406 car is in this one, and the car is now in a private collection/ museum. In the background is the '68 Tunnel-Port 302 Mustang- I believe it's the only one still in one piece and running

    [​IMG]

    My intake manifold is on this one.

    [​IMG]

    This one is a Curtis Turner car- it just has a few correct breather parts from me

    [​IMG]

    This is Vic Edelbrock warming up the '69 George Follmer B2, before the fender-bender with Camie in Yunick's Camaro

    [​IMG]

    A friend owns and drives this one, ex-Bobby Allison

    [​IMG]
     
  5. You think that's bad?

    I work in prototype for Ford. At least YOU GUYS get some idea where date cutoffs, which parts will work when, etc. We gotta TOTALLY wing it! LOL

    I'm a HEMI orange blooded Chrysler guy- but even they are not without fault.

    Like I tell all my tractor buddies "They all break the same".

    If it was easy, your wife'd be doing it and it wouldn't be fun anymore, right?

    Keep it 'tween the ditches!

    JK
     
  6. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Gene, this is getting a little tiresome.

    Total performance had some of my favorite cars, drivers and constructors in it.
    But I bet that every succesfull car in it had a 271HiPo head on it, or better.

    I already stated that I dont think of the 271HiPo head as a true counterpart for the doublehump because of its rarity and price.

    I dont think I could pick up a usable set off Craigslist, like I did with my last set of D/H's

    I truely feel that the normal production SBF heads are crap.
    Chevy's normal production head is too, probably.
    But I never really looked at one, because they had the Doublehump.

    The D/H is kinda mediocre in todays terms, but its is still a good steppingstone to bigger and better things that might come later.

    If Ford had made something like the GT40p head available as a counterpart, and in large enough numbers to keep them cheap, they may have been more of a contender in Hot Rodding.

    And also, interchangabillity and userfrienlyness matters.

    It is nice if you can use the left over parts from one project on the next one,
    if your spare parts stash fits all your cars with the same engines,
    and when you need to repair your modified daily driver in the evening or night so you can make it back to work the next day.


    For me personally, the switch to SBC's makes sense.

    I started out with SBF's because of my good experiences with ENFO's

    But Chevy's have responded well to my early carefull low budget tries with them.
    Made me want to splurge and build a bit nicer one for the next try, and a nicer one after that.

    While the SBF's have left me with the feeling I was throwing good money after bad, too many times...

    If your experiences with them are different, it makes sense for you to stay with Ford.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  7. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Funny you bring up Mini's.

    I used to race them with my Abarth...

    5 30 12 008.JPG
     
  8. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    That looks scarily familar LOL- one day in '79 my buddy down the street that had all the 427 Cobras and GT40's drug home an autocross car, and asked me to straighten out the wiring on it. It was a Fiat 600, (is that what that one is?) which is a TINY car, but it had a four-carb 140hp Corvair engine where the back seat used to be. Had an adapter manifold with a Holley, a big Crower cam, and headers that turned forward into a single muffler that exited behind the right front wheel. Fender flares over wide steelies and roadrace gumballs, and it sat about 4" off the ground. Had a homemade system of pulleys with an open cable between the clutch and pedal, leverage wasn't quite right so it was something of a light switch, go or no. Had a big handmade aluminum box that fit over the engine that buzzed like hell when you revved it up. That little roller skate was holyshit quick, twitchy as hell but FUNNNN... Frank Bradley used to live down the street from me, and when they weren't push-starting the T/F car in the street, he had a nasty little gokart he terrorized the neighborhood with, so I had to go buzz his house a couple times. I tried to get them to paint it like a bumblebee, but no go. Bet that Abarth was fun- and noisy LOL
     
  9. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Yep... Its at least partially responsable for the constant ringing I have in my ears...

    Right now I'm waiting for some brake overhaul parts to arrive from Europe, so I can put it back on the track.

    Edit.

    And in all honesty... The Fiat Abarth doesnt score very well in the userfriendlyness and parts interchangabillity department, either.
    Or reliabillity, for that matter.

    Its kinda like a very difficult girlfriend.
    But when its good, its very good...:D
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  10. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    A friend of mine went to work in Experimental Engines right out of school in the mid-sixties, pretty soon was running dynos and worked on the Cammer, Tunnel Ports, B2 and B9 engines etc., and was sent to Holman Moody to build and dyno race engines from '68 to '72, still paid by Ford. When the '68 Roadrunner came out in late '67, the local dealer got a Hemi RR in, and he bought it- had to have it. So he drives it to work the next day, and the security guard tells him you can't park that car in here- he asks why, guard tells him trust me, you don't want to park it in here. So mid-morning, he gets called upstairs and sat down, big boss says do you know what I have in my hand? Yep, that's my paycheck. Yes it is, please remember who you work for and what you do. He sold the new Hemi Roadrunner
     
  11. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Yep, I remember them running around with the engine covers propped open. There's a clean Porsche 904 running in the vintage races out here- amazing how much noise that under two litre engine puts out- one of those critters would easily spank my V8 928
     
  12. studedudeus
    Joined: Jun 11, 2008
    Posts: 141

    studedudeus
    Member

    If you feel you must run a Ford, then be sure you get engine and trans from same vehicle. Just get over it. If using Chev, you can mix and match. Other GMs (Olds, Buick, Pont) follow the Ford plan.
     
  13. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,602

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    Why was the TP 302 head used for only one year? Was it a production cost or rules change that the b2 evolved? I had found a guy in NY in the late 70's that had a ton of the tp heads, maybe intakes too but would say they were for sale but never give a price or bring them to the swap meet..Wasn't Gratiot Auto selling whole TP2 engines in 69'? I think the add stated 450hp..
     
  14. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    The TP was quickly obsolete, as the 4V Cleveland heads were already in the pipe and easily adaptable to the Windsor block, and the flow capabilities of the 4V-C head are well known. The good block and steel crank were already there from the TP. The TP's had some oil system problems early on that weren't related to the heads, but never had any problem making decent power- the Cleveland heads were just too good and easy to adapt. And anybody who tells you a B2 has no torque and is hard to drive has never driven one. Of the two I take care of, the dead-stock '69, which has the 2.23 intake valves and 3.91's can be readily launched in second gear, and the '70 which has the healthy old "Sullivan" cam in it, has had a set of 2.73 station wagon gears in it for 15 years and drives just fine. I also put a set of Chrysler Hemi tulip-shaped valves in the '70 when I built it in '79
     
  15. Pigiron
    Joined: Jan 21, 2002
    Posts: 309

    Pigiron
    Member

    Takes brains to run a Ford.
     
  16. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Yep, and there's at least one in this thread that doesn't qualify. Never seen any evidence that's he's actually made a Chebbie (or anything else) run, either- except his pie hole :p
     
  17. the boogieman
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 33

    the boogieman
    Member

    just do like the rest of the ford guys. put a chevy drive line in it!
     
  18. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Maybe more than one LOL :p
     
  19. uncle buck
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,602

    uncle buck
    Member

    I keep reading about how great the 271hp K head is / was and have to wonder, do you have any experience with these heads ?
     
  20. jcmarz
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 4,636

    jcmarz
    Member
    from Chino, Ca

    Last night, I was watching "The Public Enemy" with James Cagney and in one scene he and his friend pull up to a nightclub in a fancy convertible and the valet gets into the car and starts grinding the gears and James Cagney's character in the movie yells out
    " Hey.........That ain't no Ford, it's got gears!
    Man, I was cracking up
     
  21. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Is that one for me?

    Aww, man... Just when I thought we were getting to some sort of understanding...

    I've had my modest succeses, but essencially I'm just a lowly amateur/privateer builder/driver/owner.

    Which makes it that much more important what you spend your money and time on, and still keep the machine going ( there is never enough of either...)

    After you've done that for enough years, it becomes a hard habit to brake.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  22. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Absolutely not LOL- as I said, I think we'd have a ball together at the vintage races, and I'm sure we could work on projects together. We've got one who shows up in any thread that mentions Ford, always spews a bunch of uneducated nonsense, and never seems to have any actual personal knowledge, experience or credentials of any kind, or positive info to add- just like to hear himself blather his baloney :rolleyes:
     
  23. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    OK... Cool.:D

    Yeah, we need to get together at some point.

    Talk cars, compare notes, etc.

    Should be fun...:)
     
  24. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Methinks you might need a Wine Country vacation next year when it's time for the vintage races. The CHP actually escorts a bunch of the race cars on the highway from Sears Point to downtown Sonoma for a party in the Square on Saturday night- open exhausts, race tires, no plates and all. The Allison and Gurney cars were up front, another friend's ex-Dick Trickle car got stuck in traffic at the rear and vapor locked driving around the Square in Sonoma. Cooled off about 10 minutes and fired back up. Quite a sight going down the highway :eek:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  25. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,743

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Sounds awesome...

    Yeah, that would be quite a sight.
     
  26. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    [​IMG]

    One Pearson car with a destroker 396

    [​IMG]

    Another Pearson and a Bobby Unser, both Boss 429 powered

    [​IMG]

    In this starting grid you can find Junior Johnson's '63 Chebbie, Smokey Yunick's midget Chebbelle, Marshall Teague's Hudson Hornet, a '54 Lincoln Carrera Panamerica (Mexican Road Race) car, an early Petty Plymouth, two '64 Marauders, the Unser car, Gurney car, Allison car etc.

    [​IMG]
     
  27. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,286

    George
    Member

    302C is a destroked 351C

    BOSS 302 also used the longer 289 rods.
     
  28. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,461

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Almost- 289 Hipo rods have 3/8" bolts with a rectangular head, and a straight cut across the rod for the bolt head. B2 rods are very similar and the same length as the 289 Hipos, but have a much stronger circular cut for their football-shaped 3/8" rod bolt heads- just an improved version of the Hipo piece
     
  29. MetalShapes & MeanGene:

    If you'se set a date for a "shakedown" then let us know!!!!

    I'm only 4 hours from NAPA with a "full tank of gas & sunglasses"

    Movin/on
     
  30. Commish
    Joined: Jan 9, 2010
    Posts: 379

    Commish
    Member
    from NW Ok

    So true, anything with a gas tank can blow up, and some have, doesn't mean there should be cause for a lawsuit.
     

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