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Why Does MIG Welding Get A Bad Rap?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Drive Em, Dec 13, 2012.

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  1. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Really this is not rocket science.........Tig welding is stronger because you have more control with the heat than you do with a Mig welder. With a mig welder the wire feed is what gives you your arc and heat. With Tig welding the torch and pedal lets you control how hot you want the metal to get before diping your filler metal. With mig wire welding you are forced to have filler metal going in all the time pileing up, otherwise you have no arc. Not to mention that the Mig welding process makes for hard and brittle welds. just fine for some aps, But not stronger than Tig.....For those of you who think otherwise, I am sorry to break your hearts but you are just wrong,,,Don't take my word for it!...take a local welding class, and learn something........thats what I did.....Hell I am here to learn...But BS is just BS.....
     
  2. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    I can totally relate to that, Heliarc welding aluminum body work was a lot of fun years ago. The machine would only do aluminum, I've never had a chance to TIG steel. Maybe 2013 will be the year I get to cross that off my bucket list. Bob
     
  3. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    Saying that TIG is stronger than MIG is fine... but it's like arguing about exactly how hot the sun is, ultimately it doesn't matter. MIG can be done poorly, but so can TIG.

    The only reason we don't hear more bitching about shitty TIG welding is that it's more expensive and harder to accomplish than the easy-to-run MIG unit. Billy Joe Dipshit can plug in his MIG, flip the switch, close his eyes, and run what resembles a bead down a piece of metal. Hand Billy Joe a TIG stinger and a piece of filler rod and he'll be just as likely to ram it in his eye as lay it in the weld.

    To the OP: Noise, nothing but noise.
     
  4. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I like to weld stuff.
     
  5. Wild Turkey
    Joined: Oct 17, 2005
    Posts: 903

    Wild Turkey
    Member

    Tell them you use GMAW welding instead. Sounds like you know what your talking about so they'll think you're better and they can tell all their buddies how cool their car is:rolleyes:.
     
  6. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    I don't think there is any argument that tig welding has some advantages. It is a cleaner process, the welds can look "prettier", and there is little or no grinding needed. Maybe even some other advantages too. HOWEVER, that does not mean mig is a totally useless, unacceptable way to join metal together.

    I think the popularity of mig machines has had a really beneficial effect on our hobby. It has enabled a lot of guys, who otherwise might not be able to weld, to create totally acceptable welds with a little practice and care. To me, arc welding was a lot harder to do than using a mig because of having to strike the arc and maintain a good puddle with a heavy, long rod.

    Don
     
  7. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    Don, I just can't see how MIG is anything like stick welding, with stick you can see and control the puddle, the MIG I tried had no puddle that I could see. Maybe the MIG welds on TV with the guys welding with eyes closed is the way to MIG? Bob
     
  8. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Haha, like on American Chopper ? :D I'm not a great welder and getting more blind every year, but there is a puddle that you can follow, especially if you have a good self darkening helmet. My Son is good with a mig and I have put on a helmet and watched him welding and the puddle is definitely there and controlable.

    Don
     
  9. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Bob,
    Mig welding does have a puddle, If you was not seeing it, Your heat was prolly to low or your wire speed was too fast, and the wire was prolly just globing up on top of your part. When you wire weld It should sound like eggs frying in a skillet. And stay smooth all the way through. Now the puddle is small and not like arc welding because of the speed of the wire being fed into it. And you can not slow the wire speed down too much to get more of a puddle because your wire will just keep burning away and cause you to lose arc.
     
  10. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

     
  11. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 11,138

    metalshapes
    Member

     
  12. HaHa. That sounds exactly like me. I guess there is hope at last.:D
     
  13. Mooseman
    Joined: Apr 4, 2007
    Posts: 310

    Mooseman
    Member

    Is it strange that I am a way better tig welder then I am mig welder. I just have more tig experance then mig experiance.

    Nothing more embarrasing then trying to tack your work with a mig and think yeah ready to weld then the tacks break and you end up so disapointed.

    Mig welding humbled me, Tig welding for me just came naturally.

    As for whats better that can have alot to do with the welder.
     
  14. Horses for courses I reckon,More like does it really need to be Tig welded or will Mig do just fine?No doubt that some Tig welds are strong and "Pretty" but so are some mig welds in the right hands.I personally have no probs putting my family in a car that I have mig welded the chassis together in.It's not rocket science.IMHO.
    PS,Theres nothing as pretty as a nicely Tig welded intake to look at!And that is probably the reason for for ops question in the first place.
    Horses for courses!!
     
  15. Younger guys jump straight into Tig.
    20 years ago the younger guys jumped into mig.
    20 years before that is was stick.
     
  16. Dead right this^^^ That explains why I am Stick/Mig kinda of bloke!
     
  17. my statement does not have to do with the welding ability of the weldor, it has to do with the tight locations i have had to weld in. example; welding an exhaust pipe crammed inside a frame. most of the work i do/did involved welding up floorboards, frame rails, body mounts on daily drivers for DMV inspection. yes the welds could have been done with a tig but using the mig kept the job within budget/time. to answer your question; in the world of rusty daily drivers you can not make money with a tig but you can with a mig
     
  18. Morrisman
    Joined: Dec 9, 2003
    Posts: 1,602

    Morrisman
    Member
    from England

    So a pretty weld is a good weld??? Strange logic you got there.

    That's if I read it correctly, as you have a strange way of writing too.
     
  19. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,757

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    It's my opinion that the idiots that screw up welding with a mig will do no better with a tig so it must be OE (operator error) blaming the system is just plain stupid. Mig, Tig, Gas, Arc when done correctly will be just fine in the hands of a good welder. In the hands of harry homeowner they will look like crap and probably not be strong. It's not the process...it's the operator. I consider myself a good welder not an excellent welder but my shit does not fail and a grinder is often used to make it prettier. For anyone to say that Tig is better than Mig, that tells me that they don't understand welding.

    For years I welded exhaust systems and headers with a gas torch and coat hangers. I got some shit from some elitists. I got 100% penetration and some of my 70s systems are still in service today.

    I know that I'm not that good. Way out of practice.:D I've watched some good welders.

    Almost 40 years ago I Tig welded a stainless steel roll bar for my 74 Datsun P/U. The tubing and fittings came from a dairy that I was working on. My first attempt ever. It was in the basement of the US capitol. Nobody that I knew had a Tig machine back then. I was sure I would have a problem on my first try. It turned out that it was just like gas welding for me. Just the heat source was different. That is when I realized that it's not the system, it's the operator.
     
  20. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is one of "those" topics, and a sure sign that the cold and shitty season is looming.

    In the OP, #1, it was mentioned in the subject about a client passing on a part because it wasn't tigged. Moron. Might not want to sell to a mouthbreather like that. I'm very confident in my migs as well as my tigs. I'm certain every other experienced weldor has had to suffer through the occasional "big dick" contest about welds/process, just as I have. When it's over there's that get-back-to-work-make-$$$$ thing. It didn't change the process or the quality of the welded product.

    The other thing could be, "Oh, you'd like one tigged? I can do that for ya and it'll be an extra (2 1/2hrs shop rate)." "What? Why?" "Well the process takes longer and my margins are based on hours, you know, buisness?" You'll still hang up on em within a few min. The more cred we give these arguments and discussions the bigger the urban legend of it becomes. Anyone who thinks they can't sustain a crash or launch a hot rod on a mig weld is a candy ass. Yes, I said it. CANDY ASS. Sissy, wimp, Momma luc, pillow biter, and any other slap in the sack ya wanna give em. A pro knows what and when to use. The longer he's in buis the more confidence you accept in his work/product. Anything else is a cop out or meant to appease one's self, or to justify the "window shopping" or dreaming that initiated the call.

    To the OP, fuck em. Maybe something here in one of the replies added a brick to your foundation, but just do what you do and tell the sissy/expert you're too busy to explain. Or, for fun give them the number to the nearest wleding school...
     
  21. olskoolspeed
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 476

    olskoolspeed
    Member
    from Ohio


    This pretty much sums it up...
     
  22. Mamma luc ?
    Candy ass + marshmallow are my favorite emasculation terms.

    More fitting would be seeking information from the wrong places or wrong faces and taking that as Gospel.

    All this BS aside - as far as rookie welds go - I'd trust a rookie birdshit stick weld before I'd trust the same rookie's mig weld.
     
  23. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  24. GregCon
    Joined: Jun 18, 2012
    Posts: 689

    GregCon
    Member
    from Houston

    TIG and MIG are greatly different processes....does anyone really suggest you are going to production weld a 1/2" steel fabrication with TIG? Or MIG together a .030 SS instrument air line?
     
  25. I am partial to ass hat myself :D Although I did call a cop from Texas a rat bastard a while back and that worked real well.

    I don't have anything aginst TIG welds, I don't own a TIG setup so when I have something that I feel needs to be TIG welded I tac it up with my MIG then go use someone els's TIg machine.

    There is a difference I guess between me and a lot of the fellas, I know how to weld and know what can be MIGed and what needs to be TIGed. I also know when to pic up a stick or use a torch.

    Every process has its strengths and weaknesses, the key is knowing what to do and when to do it. It appears that some of the fellas posting on this thread do not know. The really scary thing is that at least one of them builds cars for a living.
     
  26. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,530

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    Miller and Lincoln tech info agree short circuit MIG can be susceptible to poor fusion, primarily on metal over 1/8 inch thick.
    ( Lincoln calls short circuit transfer "short arc transfer")

    Miller says if I hear bacon frying, or can weld thin metal, or simply can weld out of position my welds are probably short circuit MIG.
    http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/mig_handbook.pdf

    Section 3-1
    "Limitations of short circuit transfer:
    A relatively low deposition rate
    Lack of fusion on thicker metals"

    Globular transfer MIG is the next step up from short circuit MIG. If I bump up the settings from short circuit , I may not be able to weld anywhere but horizontal/flat.
    "Limitations of globular transfer:
    Presence of spatter
    Less desirable weld appearance than spray arc transfer
    Welding is limited to flat positions and horizontally fillet welds
    Welding is limited to metal 1/8 inch (3 mm)or thicker"

    =============

    Even good looking short circuit MIG welds can have poor fusion.
    http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/images/lof-mig-tee.jpg

    http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...heory/Pages/mig-problems-remedies-detail.aspx
    "Lack of Fusion Problem: Cold Lapping in the Short Arc Transfer Process

    In short arc transfer, the wire directly touches the weld pool and a short circuit in the system causes the end of the wire to melt and detach a droplet. This shorting happens 40 to 200 times per second. Fusion problems may occur when the metal in the weld pool is melted, but there is not enough energy left to fuse it to the base plate.
    In these cases, the weld will have a good appearance, but none of the metal has actually been joined together. Since lack of fusion is difficult to detect visually, it must be checked by dye-penetrant, ultrasonic or bend testing. "

    I'd say the sectioned weld in image link to weldingtipsandtrccks.com would pass dye pen just fine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  27. wibble_1979
    Joined: Sep 25, 2012
    Posts: 109

    wibble_1979
    Member

    I would say its due to some one wanting to get in to welding for what ever reason, They hear MIG is cheap, reliable, and easy to learn. So they go buy a mig bring it home, plug it in and go. No gas shielding, no flux core wire, no prior training or instruction's. heck I would be suprised if said indavidual even read the instructions that came with his machine. how do I know this? I was "that guy" then I found out about flux core. little better, heat range's, little better, wire speed, little better, gas shielding WOW!!! I beleive more people have tried MIG and screwed it up so they gave up and now think MIG to be garbage. no instant gratification as advertized on the box. not willing to invest the time and effort to do it right or atleast to screw up bad enough to know what not to do. I personally have a millermatic 211 autoset. I can run 120 volt 240 volt gas shielded, flux core, aluminum, etc. etc. I love this machine yes it is pricey but will definetley make up for your lake of ability with its high quality and enginuity that is built in to this machine. could I have started with a cheaper mig ? yes I do not think I would have been anywhere near as please with it as I am with this machine. TIG definatley produces cleaner stronger welds, but does the project you are doing "ALWAYS" require that? no heck I would rather by a mig and an oxy/acetalene set and still have some money in my pocket then learn to gas weld, cut and bend with the torch. most do it yourself projects are just fine with mig

    I will get off my soap box now before some one kick's it out from under me. take it easy H.A.M.B.'ers
     
  28. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,530

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    American Welding Society (AWS) only allows Welding Procedure Specifications(WPS) for non short circuit MIG when welding structures in seismic zones. (I'd like to think all my vehicles are seismic zones).

    http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/US/EN/literature/C165.pdf

    page 14 - Welding Procedure Specifications (WPSs)
    "The welding process shown on the WPS may be SMAW, GMAW (except for short circuit transfer), FCAW
    (either self-shielded or gas-shielded) or SAW. Other processes are permitted under specific conditions.
    See D1.8, clause 6.2.1. "



    In 2008 the state of New York prohibited any MIG welding on the structural parts of bridges, etc.
    https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/en...uals/scm/repository/scm_addm2010_section7.pdf
    "705. APPROVED WELDING PROCESSES
    The following welding processes may be used for the fabrication of bridges, buildings and ancillary products:
    Manual Shielded Metal Arc Welding (SMAW)
    Submerged Arc Welding (SAW)
    Flux Cored Arc Welding (FCAW)
    Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW) – ancillary products only"

    Their spec is not unique in that regard. Until recently I worked for a 2nd or 3rd tier Power Plant OEM whose decades old internal specs prohibit any MIG on structural components. When I asked why the QA guys said it was out of fear or poor fusion, which is not always inspectable on a finished part.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  29. tikiwagon13
    Joined: Feb 23, 2011
    Posts: 373

    tikiwagon13
    Member

    I have built about a dozen racecars, all the cages and frames have been mig welded, I have even been involved in some pretty big crashes and they held up.

    F-1 cars are made of non-ferrous composites, if you can tig weld this then my hats off to you, you are the most talented welder on earth.
     
  30. tikiwagon13
    Joined: Feb 23, 2011
    Posts: 373

    tikiwagon13
    Member

    I'm teaching my daughter how to weld, we are satring with oxy-acetyline, learn puddle control first then go on to TIG, then finally MIG. I( have seen too many bad habits with guys going out and buying a MIG machine and just laying down bubble gum, instead of learing the technique of puddle control.
     
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