Art & Inspiration what makes a "beautiful" roadster? (senior project)

wow this is awesome, i am currently a 2nd year student in transportation design (id) at U.C. an have been thinking along these lines for my senior thesis as well.....(its still 3 years away but you can never start planning too early) unfortunately i dont have much more wisdom to impart other than what has already been said. Beauty is definately in the eyes of the beholder, but i would advise you not to limit yourself to a specific generation of car, look at what was produced in the past but also take note in how past designs are continuing to affect what is being produced today. Good luck with your project and keep us up to date! What sort of process do you have to go through for your thesis? I know for us we have to design a concept create the literature for it then 3d model it on the computer and then create a scale model and im sure there more to it but i dont really know yet im still aways off......... either way good luck i know its alot of work but youve picked a great topic!!!

 

I have always found the Watson Indy roadsters to be amazing, I think they are visually pleasing and they represent (to me) the height of Indy 500. Every kid with a car wanted to be a part of the 500, and the drivers in the 500 were real men. So I know for me my emotions play into the feelings for the cars. I am 36 so I never saw them race so my thoughts are all "self made" for lack of a better term. I know the reality is that many drivers were hurt and killed in that era but my romanticised mental picture is only guts and glory. I am currently building a late 40's style lakes roadster mostly for the same reason. To me it represents a happy and prosperous time in the US. So I think so much of beauty is based on your experiences/fantasies.

 

ThirdGen,
Great subject for discussion. My view would follow what many have already covered;
- Vision, the designer/craftsman/artisan had a clear idea of the result desired
- Proportion, all elements are in harmony including accents that add tension
- Execution, surfaces, textures and details blend to achieve the desired level of quality

Defining what constitutes a 'Beautiful Roadster' is an interesting task and to me assumes that the car has been completed. Perhaps identifying the elements of a 'beautifully designed roadster' could be your subject for a design paper, and then offer a model of your proposal for confirmation.

All the best as you work on this.

 

I would add timelessness to this list. The greatest test of beauty is if it stands the test of time rather than being a trend or fashion item. Is it enduring? Will it look as good twenty, thirty, fifty years down the road as the moment it first saw the light of day?

 

RickyBop
You have nailed it, write a book about it, I will buy one.
Da Flash
Third Gen, I look forward to reading your final tomb, it might have some influence on future winners in LA.
Da Flash

 

Hi Josh, I would like to recomend Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig. He describes his book as an exploration into the metaphysics of quality. He goes into great detail about Romantic thought which is based heavily around Form and artistic visual merit, and Classical thought which is based heavily on function, the validity of applied data such math. He basically describes quality as a moment in time that occurs between the individual and the object being observed, and argues that their is no real clean cut definition of Quality. This might be a usefull philosophical cornerstone for your work. Best of luck to you.

 

I have completely enjoyed this thread .It shows the wide range of talents out there.
I have just spent an hour discussing this with my 24 year old son and had a good time doing it.He has just graduated from with a degree in Art and Architecture and is working on his Masters.We have had discussions on" Senior Projects".Everyone on here has offered up a lot of good advise Listen! I have a couple thoughts . Because we consider ourselves "Traditional Rodders "We can only comment on things lthat we
like about the Traditional Roadsters at GNRS .I think that the Gold Roadster that we voted for last year for Best HAMB Roadster is Timeless .With the type of car we are talking about it would be interesting to post this same question on a Street Rod site
(Goodguys or NSRA) and compare differences ? I am quite sure there would be alot that would be the same I would like to know the Diferences.Now for Senoir Project. Is trying to put a hanlle on this topic to broad for this type of project ? Making a statement and backing it up with documented facts might be hard to prove .That project on your last semester will be rough and I think you would have a heck of a time building a roadster in a semester in your free time .
I appologise in advance for anything I have said that may have offended anyone .Ball busting was not my goal.. Good luck to you.

 

Lock it down for drama.

 

Except when "DETAIL" means too damn much of it.

My graphic design professors always said that a good design needed to be simple and clean enough so that there is room for the eye to "rest" when you look at it. Otherwise, if it is too chaotic and busy, there is not a place for the eye to rest – it bounces all over trying to take in all the nifty little details and that creates tension.

Most of the AMBR awards in recent history have gone to cars that are built to gain a show point at every possible step along the way (too much detail) and that makes them too busy to be truly beautiful, and that is the fundamental flaw in the way that particular award is decided.

It shouldn't be based on a sheet where you gain a point for everything you add to the car. That is not what beauty is about.

 

the khougaz...for me.

hard to explain but we've probably all seen the photos of it. when i finally saw it in person it's really different. the channel makes it seem little, the stance is less raked than many. but it just goes on and on. i found myself with my head on the ground looking at the pan for a painfully long time. every inch of it is detailed - but it all seems drawn from utility first - it just came out looking perfect too. it wasn't getting a lot of attention at the show. the color is unassuming, the wheels aren't the holy grail. ...but there is an SCTA tag on it - can't buy one of those. and every part of that car helped jim kougaz earn that tag.

 

Same here. If I had to pick an all-time favorite rod, the Khougaz roadster would be it.

 

We'll just put a mardi gras clown in front of that to draw your eye away.

 

you know...i have to agree that the same issue annoys me wherever i see it. ...but on the kougaz it looks right with the aluminum inserts in the wells. and the car is so low was he supposed to move the well up to the beltline or just remove it?

but this car doesn't need my defense. i'm not qualified and it sits as it sits. besides, i'll apologize endlessly for anything that looks that good.

 

You are asking a selective group of what they deem beautiful- a mostly traditional crowd & until recently- a minority in the car world. So your responses will lean towards a pre 63 flavor. Ask the same question on a street rod forum & you will get a totally different answer.
For me- a beautiful roadster may or may not be tradition to the bone. There's been plenty of non traditional roadsters I loved. I'm all about paint, panel fit & execution. I'm all about wheel diameters that actually line up w/ body reveals (very big on my list). I'm about execution & simplicity. I'm all about an interior that matches the build style- whatever it is. Flashy & gaudy for the sake of attention doesn't work for me. Rare shit bolted on period cars just because- doesn't work for me.
It's about style. It's about design. It's about looking at the car & wishing I could hop in it & drive it 500 miles somewhere- anywhere. But- it has to look damn good doing it.
The best compliment someone can give your roadster...
That car is beautiful! You actually drove it here? Fuck yea!

 

I think the concept of "beauty" is as difficult to express in words as is the concept of "love". People generally know when they are sensing beauty and can explain some of the attributes of a beautiful object. We may have some ideas on what makes something beautiful, but we come up blank when we try to explain why something is beautiful.

When we are viewing a beautiful automobile, we will notice exquisite proportions, sumptuous color, and near flawless engineering and craftsmanship. In our mind, these things tell us what makes the car beautiful. However, the question remains - why?

Someone has mentioned the mathematical aspect of proportions. Anyone who has been through art and design school will be familiar with discussions regarding the so called "Golden Rectangle" or "Golden Ratio". Designers and artists know if they layout graphics or sculpt an object with the proportions of the Golden Rectangle, the effect will have aesthetic appeal. Certainly, other things enter into the aesthetic equation such as color choice, craftsmanship, subject matter, and interesting juxtaposition of objects. Nevertheless, without proper proportions, the overall work will definetly be diminished. I'm sure a psychologist could explain the mechanics of the human psyche when it responds to a beautiful work of art. They would surely talk about social and cultural influences. They would say something about how upbringing and education come into play. They would even include a description of chemical processes that take place in the brain when triggered by an emotional response to a stimulus. However, none of these things really get to the root; it will not explain why. Why does it trigger such a process?

Without getting into too much of a discussion on spiritualism and philosophy, I will say this. I think all things having to do with the lofty ideal of beauty are rooted in something that is a reflection of that which is Devine in the universe. When any object or idea, even the lowly hot rod, has attributes of that which is perfect in the universe, it affects the emotions and thinking of humans. Why? Hmmm, God only knows.

 

This Roadster is beautiful in my opinion. I like maroon, so that works too. Its detailed, but not overdone. Proportionally its "right". Its the "Walker Morrison" roadster, as can be seen on the SCTA tag on the dash. I love this car.

 

This is a very provocative thread. Although I think about this stuff every day, I've never been challenged to create the criteria for a beautiful roadster (or any other type of car, either). With all due respect to what has been written so far, I need to just think this through by my own kind of logic. This may take me multiple posts.

First, the car needs to have a theme or purpose. I don't mean like judging classes (prewar/postwar, mild/radical), but a way that the designer/builder has thought of the thing from the outset. Is it an aerodynamic speedster, moving cleanly through the air, with as few barbs as possible? The Niekamp 1950 winner had this look:


and here's a failed AMBR competitor from 1998, with the right shape but perhaps too much mechanism exposed:


Or perhaps a really muscular, mechanical car, with a lot of exposed hardware, and an aggressive appearance borrowed from competition cars. For example, Dick Williams' '53 winner had this, and impeccable mechanical detailing:


...and Phil Cool's 1978 AMBR, all tires and engine:


Or, an idealized version of a production roadster with fenders, top, and running boards, just refined like Chip Foose's 2006 Impression:


A beautiful roadster could be any of these, and many other themes besides, but it should be true to the theme the designer/builder has chosen and not mix them carelessly.

More to follow...

 

Awesome! we are on a roll!

ynottay block - great list of aspects of design. couldn't agree more.

Steve Norcal - Thanks Steve, and i will definitely keep everyone posted.

bstoltz - University of Cincinnati, aye? Great work, and great designers come out of that school. Wish i went for transportation design, no i just have to look into automotive design through I.D., such as do my senior project based on a hot rod, haha. Our project consists of two terms. Basically in short, Spring term (now) we have to do the research aspect of the project, and than summer semester we will be building our actual product. We'll see how it goes. Good Luck to you with your schooling,i'd like to see your senior project in a few years.

63fdnsr - Great Advice! and i will definitely look into that aspect.

diego chero - Thanks for the reference and i will check that out because that is the area in which i'm taking great interest in (philosophical and Art theories)

Pinman 39 - Thanks for the feedback. I will be looking into other areas of the hot rod culture, and i def. agree with your concern aout if this is too broad, and it is, but that is what i am going to figure out through research, how to collect all this info. and then use that into what i am trying to answer/prove/solve. And for TIME, i think its possible, it'll be crunch, but if i do all my research and design this semester, than i have all summer semester to build, and i will know exactly what i have to build.

Cleatus - Totally agree. Simple and clean goes a long way.

Steves32 - Right on! I'm asking everyone on the HAMB because i want to get an understanding of what a beautiful roadster is, from people who have an understanding of where it all originated from.

Toby Denham - Well written! I'm looking into the philosophical sense and also the many art theories that contribute to this philosophy: "what is Beauty?"

50 Fraud - Thanks for your feedback, and take on this "question", i like your approach on thinking of all the different styles of roadsters thought out the years.



Sorry if these responses are scattered brain, cause i sort of am, haha. I got a bunch of projects not relating to this that are due soon. But i want to stay on top of what is being discussed here. Great responses everybody!

 

OK, here are some more thoughts about this.

I already talked about THEME in the post above.

The next important issue for a beautiful car is FORM. Whether it's a modified stock body or a handmade one, the contours of its panels need to be perfectly formed (including perhaps reveals, creases, or scoops), and adjacent panels must be faired to each other with continuous surface transitions and uniform gaps. Recently, some people have adopted the term FLOW to describe this characteristic.

PROPORTION is a biggie. The relative sizes and lengths of the hood, top, deck, fenders (if any), wheels, tires, and exposed mechanical details need to look like they belong together. An excessively long hood, too severe a channelling job, or freakish looking wheel sizes can conspire to erase the "beautiful" adjective.

STANCE is a term that has only entered the vocabulary of car guys in the last 20 years or so, but it's the subtle proportioning of the car's attitude (rake, level, taildragger?), ground clearance, and tire sizes that can make it look sleek, agressive, or -- God forbid -- static.

DETAIL is the hallmark of craftsmanship. Wheels, vents, handles, brackets, axles, windshield frames, and lights all need to be shaped and sized to complement one another and the form of the body. Not only the design, but the DENSITY of detail can make or break the beauty of the design. If there's too little, the car may go unnoticed; if there's too much (think George Poteet's truck at this year's GNRS) it may look like a circus wagon. Detail should be interesting, but restrained.

FINISH is a huge consideration on a show car. The paint needs to be flawless, of course, but also plating and other bare metal finishes (sandblast? engine turned? brushed?), rubber dressing, wiring, and glass all contribute to the overall impression.

COLOR SCHEME goes beyond the basic body color, graphics, striping, and other applied finishes. The upholstery, carpet, tires, bare metal parts, and glass are all ultimately part of the color scheme, and must be chosen to harmonize and/or contrast elegantly with the paint colors.

INNOVATION is not a feature of all beautiful cars, but it adds spice to some. Could be a new and novel combination of body parts, an unprecedented body modification, an exotic exhaust system. In our traditional circle it can be risky -- we demand unique and original concepts that have stood the test of time. ;-)

CRAFTSMANSHIP can't be over-emphasized in the judging of beauty. It certainly includes nicely shaped brackets, straight seams, and perfectly polished paint, but it goes on to include the routing of wiring and plumbing, the choice and installation of fasteners, and the integrated relationship of the thousands of components in a finished car.

The AMBR winners that seem to have the most timeless appeal, from Niekamp to Foose, score well on all of these criteria. The ones that fail in the eye of the traditionalist generally do so in the areas of theme, form, proportion, or stance. Exceptional workmanship is expected today, so it's rare to see a ragged edge on anything competing at the AMBR level, but the aesthetic stuff is not as well managed by some builders.

EMOTION may be the final criterion. Does a car arouse your lust, your competitiveness, your appetite for danger? Are you imagining engine noises and shift points as you fantasize about tearing around or cool cruising in the object of your desire? Must be beautiful, then, huh?

 

What's the blue one?

 

Beauty, is, in the eye of the beholder. But I take it a bit farther.

"Stance, Style & Proportion,..... A car that evokes a feeling of speed and inner excitement just sitting there,... not unlike a painting by a master,.... many people paint pictures,... but only a few can create masterpieces."
.....Harms Way

That sums it up for me visually, but "I" also believe that beauty in a hot rod requires personal investment (NOT THE MONETARY KIND!!!!) and a deep emotional attatchment. The portion of me that is willing to get my hands dirty, my lungs filled with paint and exhaust fumes, and my soul immersed into every detail is what drives this thought process. I'm not trying to offend those that are able and willing to pay to have a car built, but that is just not my cup of tea, and will never consider those "beautiful". I am relatively new to this hot rod building thing, but I am really trying to do things old school on our hot rod, in that I am doing the best with what I have, can afford, and doing as much as possible myself. My biggest regret and dilema is that I can take no credit for our cars design, as I am tributing my wife's uncles roadster (the Anderegg Roadster, 1955 AMBR Winner). This car is a sight to behold, and as it is taking shape in our garage, I am really begining to see the original car's "beauty" and the out of the box thinking that Uncle Ray had. I can only hope that one day someone will consider our version "beautiful" not only because of the resemblance to the original "beautiful" roadster, but because of an appreciation of all the hard "work" that my wife and I have done and the attention to some of the important details from the original car.

To me, a truly "BEAUTIFUL ROADSTER"


Louie

 

A beautiful roadster is one that hits the builders mark on the nose. Everything flows and is functional. A car that when seasoned hotrodders walk up to it, they can't help but crack a smile. Comments like, " that's slick", "that could set in my garage anyday", "look at they way he made that work", etc. A beautiful roadster is one that when completed the owner says, "Oh yeah, just the way I wanted it", and his friends say, "that's my buddies car, he nailed it". When the car is done and 25 years later the same comments are made...my fellow rodders, you have a 'beautiful roadster'.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
HG

 

A difficult to say. All early roadsters are beautiful in my eyes, but I suppose for my part: a roadster needs to either be all original, or completely unique. Opposite ends of the spectrum, I know.
But, Cookie cutter roadsters just don't do it for me. Still beautiful, but I like a roadster that'll stand out against other roadsters.

 

Oh they make me tingle. All the right curves what more could you want.

 

1949 Delahaye 175S with body by Saoutchik

 

As has been said by many "Flow", "Stance", are all very important. It is the whole package that makes a car "Beautiful". A seemingly great car can be ruined by 4in exhaust coming out the rear. And as having been said before stuff hanging off the car for no reason. "Looks like it went though Pep Boys with a magnet"

 

Tank nailed it That roadster is ''IT''[/IMG]This roadster is just about stock, dropped axle no fenders, go's to show just how beautiful the 32 Ford really is ! Truly a thing of beauty !!!

 

More my cuppa, also Saoutchik but a few years earlier:


Hispano-Suiza type 68-bis

 

The word "Vitality" comes to my mind.

It took me a long time to understand what that word meant in the context of art. I think my painting lecturer at art school in '84 spent about a semester trying to explain it and I equally spent that time trying to understand it...I really did want to understand.

Finally I did get it. It refers to the marks made by the artist or the chisel marks left by the sculptor and I believe it is an important aspect of any creative endeavour. It is character. Vitality in a painting or sculpture provides more than a nicely crafted item. It is totally independent of all the other stuff stated above about proportion, balance, colour etc, without which the whole thing is a dead loss regardless.

I can look at a beautifully proportioned and finished sculpture and be left cold. But give me a bronze casting where I can still see the fingerprints of the artist where they pushed the clay around and I'll be far more engaged. Same with cars. I want to see a bit of the guy that built it in there. That does not mean shitty welds and rust holes but it does mean I want to see welds...don't grind and fill them...where is the beauty in that?

This is all totally in addition to all the stuff stated above that I don't feel the need to reiterate.

Pete