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Technical What happens overheating inj. alcohol engine. Piston pic.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by BnG Engine, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    Thought I would show what happened to an Injected Alcohol engine when it was severely overheated.
    This is actually the third time this has happened. The one piston pictured had the bushing eat into the piston as can be witnessed.
    PIC_2593.JPG PIC_2594.JPG PIC_2595.JPG PIC_2596.JPG PIC_2597.JPG
     
  2. I thought Alky ran cooler than gas? How did you overheat it?
     
  3. That was a breakdown of the oil from running hot. Where you using Casteroil?
     
    BnG Engine likes this.
  4. ididntdoit1960
    Joined: Dec 13, 2011
    Posts: 1,017

    ididntdoit1960
    Member
    from Western MA

    any cooling system? running too lean? Tell us more, would like to learn...
     
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  5. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,219

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    A whole lot more info needed here and not just "it overheated"
    My first impression is that you believed all those infomercials about magic oil additives and ran the engine without oil. First thing that happens when you severly overheat (250* does not matter what fuel) is the rings lose tension and you start blowing smoke and you are way beond that point if you galled up a pin. Thats "Black Death" and its a oil issue
     
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  6. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    It as happened 3 times. This is one of those 305 sprint car series engines.
    This engine is also .060 over.
    The first time they had problems with the injection tune. It was way too lean. Cracked the block and continued running it. This is when the oil really broke down and pin bushing walked out eating the piston.
    The second time they were in a fairly bad accident, and cracked the block.
    The third time the radiator got loose and came back into water pump thus overheating the engine and cracking the block yet again.
    I am no fan of the 305 engine running on alcohol. This last time we did a 1/2 fill on the block to strengthen the block up. Their was definitely a difference in the sound the boring bar makes in the block with the fill.
    I'm also leaning towards the driver leans the engine out when in caution laps, and I'm almost thinking he's keeping it lean while racing. I can't prove it though.
    No on the Casteroil. We call this engine our Jonah. The other engine they have which is .030 over and using the same cam grind has almost no problems. The .060 engine has the better engine parts and pushes the rules as far as they can.
     
  7. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    I have never witnessed the car at the track and cannot tell you everything it has gone through. I can only tell you what the owner and driver tell me. I have tried to get them to take it to a dyno to tune it but they will not and I am not a tuner. I don't know a lot about mechanical injection. I have the basic understandings on it.
    Oh I believe no infomercials on oil additives. They use the same oil in both engines yet the milder engine has no problems. They do have 2 separate injection manifolds, and I'm not even sure if they are changing the tune between the 2 engines, which I know will be totally different.
     
  8. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,219

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    These people are idiots and will bring you down in a heartbeat, get rid of them.
    Obviously they have a dial a jet installed where the driver can get to it and could be responcable for the damage. I have pulled many out of cars because of the damage they cause. really only need 2 posisions race jet and cooldown (smaller than race jet) . Jetting and tuning for alc injection is so stupidly easy. 1- make sure the pump is good and not soft. 2- have the system flowed for the engine size. It takes X amount of Pounds per hr of fuel to make max power for any given engine size-period!!! Leaning will only raise cyl temps because BTU's can create power, but come with a steep cost. 3- jet until operating water temp reaches 210-220 deg. 4--add stops to d-a-j so that only 2 stations work with the cool down jet is 5 richer (smaller oriface)
     
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  9. 2x^, that was not a lean run condition but poor oil quality.
    I ran a 377 on alky for 5 years and never had a oil problem like you have. I ran kendall 50w.
    It is not a lean condition as the piston tops are not burned. Our 327 burned a piston due to a lean out but did not gall the piston skirts. (kendall oil)
     
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  10. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    Bearings after the burn down could actually be used over if I wanted to use them. Crank and rods all mic. up fantastic. No problems with the cam and lifters. Is Kendall oil still available? Haven't seen it on any shelves in forever.
    The last time it did this was because of no coolant left in the system and the temp gauge went to 240 plus.
    I couldn't tell you the oil temps as I can't get them to put an oil temp gauge in the pan, and yes the pan is set up for it.
    I have made many suggestions but they only fall on deaf ears. I hate seeing engines I rebuild come back for things like this. The last time warped the driver side head .009. They have to run a spec head from Brodix.
    I know a lean condition will melt the center of a piston right down. Had a guy do that to me once in only 6 laps.
     
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  11. 41woodie
    Joined: Mar 3, 2004
    Posts: 1,098

    41woodie
    Member

    I believe that Brad Penn Oil is selling what was Kendall Oil...maybe just wishful thinking
     
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  12. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    Anything is worth a try, but if it's the oil why only the .060 over engine and not the .030 over backup they've been running. Both are zero deck with the pistons, and should be within 1/2 a point of compression to each other.
     
  13. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    When we ran alcohol, it was because we could run rich without fouling plugs and keep the engine cool.
    It's still sold. http://www.kendallmotoroils.com/
     
  14. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,219

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    BradPenn is the same formula as the old Kendall. New Kendall is repackaged Citco or Conoco bought for the name and not formula
     
  15. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,641

    thirtytwo
    Member

    I have read where Kendall was sold years back and the race formulas weren't part of the deal , supposedly brad penn is the old Kendall race formula ... So that is where the brad penn " it's the green oil " slogan comes from as a referance to old Kendall days

    I only find it online or serious race shops

    Edit: Dreracer beat me to it! Must be good info that I got
     
  16. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,228

    oldolds
    Member

    As most are saying it is an oil problem. How many races are they running the motor? Maybe they are not changing the oil enough. Had a friend tell me they changed oil before the got to the track and then before the feature race. They were point winner many times.
     
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  17. greg32
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 2,124

    greg32
    Member
    from Indiana

    We run Brad Penn Nitro 60 or 70 in a twin turbo BAE hemi. No oiling issues, but with all meth motors, have to change it frequently.
     
  18. Degenerate
    Joined: Aug 5, 2007
    Posts: 239

    Degenerate
    Member
    from Indiana

    I'm guilty of burning one up with a dial a jet. During a caution I dialed her to leaner condition, got distracted and when the green came out I took off. I was lucky I wasn't fired. Next week the car owner had that dial a jet out of the car.
     
  19. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,219

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Brad Penn is not some dudes name--- Its a refineory in Bradford , Penn.
    The BP oil just like the old Kendall does not emulsify the alc into the oil and seperates rather quickly allowing the alc to steam off the top
     
  20. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,219

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Unless one is racing NHRA T/F or F/C changing oil that often is a waste of money and oil. Base oil never breaks down (unless you catch it on fire) it only gets dirty first. Run it too too long and the additives break down and acids appear. If your friend has to change oil before the main he either has serious issues that he is masking with the oil change or an oil sponser
     
  21. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,228

    oldolds
    Member

    They made left turns with the car. I thought they were hiding something as well. The guys response was that they ran so much fuel that the oil was contaminated with fuel after the end of a race they felt better about changing it. These guys raced in the 1965-1972 time frame. I never saw him race, just listen to the story.
     
  22. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,219

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    They prob were hiding something, Could have bought oil from fuel racers, that oil really gets contaminated, but using it in the motor heats it up and fumes off past the rings to give a little extra HP without being noticed
     
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  23. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    They change the oil at least every other race night or sometimes every race night. The .030 over engine has at least 8 to 10 races on it probably quite a few more, the other one was ate up in about 3 races each time. Last time as I said they ate the radiator and were over 240*+ water temp.
    I have a guy with a big block 540 running on Alc. and nitrous that has never had an issue.
     
  24. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,196

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    I think it had to get a hell of a lot hotter than 240 to do that. I had one get so hot during a feature one night it pulled all the treads in the head bolt holes out and it never scored a piston like that. The driver probably should have known something was going on long before it got to that stage too.
     
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  25. gibraltar72
    Joined: Jan 21, 2011
    Posts: 260

    gibraltar72
    Member
    from Osseo Mi.

    I'm bettin on lean does it have a high speed bypass? I co owned crew chiefed alky sprinter so know a little. You state two instances where you know radiator was damaged that would explain a lot alcohol burns cool but doesn't replace water cooling. Sounds like they might have more money than sense. We used Valvoline when we had a little sponsorship from them also used Pennzoil both racing grade never had oiling issues. One other thing comes to mind my driver partner used to partly close fuel shutoff on yellows, but always opened back up with 1 to go. Good luck with that.
     
  26. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,690

    Larry T
    Member

    You might fix the first one with oil and tune up. Maybe a new driver would fix the last two, maybe not.
     
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  27. BnG Engine
    Joined: Jul 1, 2015
    Posts: 60

    BnG Engine
    Member

    Yes, and they had a problem with it one of the times.
    Larry T, their will most likely never be another driver as it is a father/son operation. They want to step up to the 360 class. The major problem with this 305 class is when they do get hot the block cracks. They have to use stock blocks and have a handful of casting numbers to choose from.
    One of the other things I don't like about the engines is the Brodix Spec. head is actually for the larger 4" bore size and the 305 size head gasket will not work because it hangs into the chamber so bad. Custom head gaskets or one of the 283 sized gaskets is the go to for these. The Spec head also has 1.940 int. and 1.600 exh. valves.
     

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