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welding with a pacemaker

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by dragster, Jan 6, 2011.

  1. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    This is the quote right from the Medtronics pamplet, don't use this for a final decision by any means, but I would contact the manufacturer, I'm still wondering about the lead vest, the lead stops most types of radiation, of which electromagnetic is just one. I would think one of the problems would be the fact that the high frequency welding generates microwave energy, which a lead vest should stop just fine. here's the info, one of the things i hear over and over is to twist the cables together, this causes the frequencies to cancel each other out
    welding info

     
  2. mammyjammer
    Joined: May 23, 2009
    Posts: 512

    mammyjammer
    Member
    from Area 51

    My wife has managed a Device (Pacemaker and D-Fib) Clinic at a local Cardiology group for over 10 years.

    She has made it quite clear that if I ever get a Device implanted, my welding days are DONE...
     
  3. Fordgasser1
    Joined: Jan 20, 2009
    Posts: 1,320

    Fordgasser1
    Member
    from Jersey

    I know a guy in Delaware(Jim Mcfarland) who has a pacemaker and has been welding for years with no protection..However,If it were me,I wouldn't take any chances..Lead vest for high frequency heli-arc welding..
     
  4. threeston
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 74

    threeston
    Member

    my dad works for Medtronics, I guess I could ask him about it.
     
  5. temper_mental
    Joined: Oct 22, 2006
    Posts: 2,718

    temper_mental
    Member
    from Texas

    Man, that would suck. I hate wearing heavy clothing. A lead vest would be hell. But I would be sporting a lead suit to keep doing what I love.
     
  6. I would think if ya had some amperage pass through from one arm through your chest to the other arm, that little device wouldn't like it.. It could fry a chip, thus causing your heart to cease.. I wouldn't screw with it... I am a hotrodder, but if it could kill me on the spot.. I don't think I would do it anymore...
     
  7. Mark Hinds
    Joined: Feb 20, 2009
    Posts: 616

    Mark Hinds
    Member
    from pomona ca

    Welding with a pacemaker is a major NO NO.The pace maker doesn't know the differance between your hearts electrical system or your Lincolns electrical system, and tries to adjust accordingly. If you talk to your doctor they have drugs you can use until the day comes you absolutily have to have a pace maker. I used drugs for 18 years before they did a radio frequency ablation which burns nerves inside the heart. I can still weld and not take the meds anymore. Science is a wonderful tool.:D
     
  8. fbama73
    Joined: Jul 12, 2008
    Posts: 989

    fbama73
    Member

    OK, let me ask this: what distance is safe from welding for someone with a pacemaker and/or inplanted defibrilator to be? I ask because I have a great neighbor who is around from time to time, and I don't want to take any chances.
     
  9. brewsir
    Joined: Mar 4, 2001
    Posts: 3,278

    brewsir
    Member

    I have a friend with a pacemaker ...he doesn't weld but he did bring over a handheld EF device he borrowed from work...we tested to see how far away he could be from where I was welding (lincoln 110v. mig welder) and using the guidelines he got he could have done the welding himself and been OK.....but he still doesn't take the chance....because he knows plenty of guys who will weld for him!
     
  10. joee
    Joined: Oct 9, 2009
    Posts: 486

    joee
    Member

    i'm just stunned anyone would bet their life on the internet........
     
  11. DocWatson
    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
    Posts: 10,273

    DocWatson
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One thing everyone is forgetting and it should be the base for beginning your safety measures, and that is the 'Worst Case Scenario'. Yes you may be fine welding because the unit you are using does not throw out that much EM/EF etc energy.
    Well thats great but in a worst case happening and the entire electrical pulse travels through YOU, may not be as serious for another person but to the guy with the pace maker it just fried his pacemaker.....................He died seconds latter.
    You wanna risk that?
    I have worked in Trauma for a fucking long time, in places like workshops, docks, battlefields, aviation, you name it I bet I have had something to do with it.
    Don't risk your life on something that only 'May happen'. That happening is not that as uncommon as you may think and I bet my brother medical workers don't want to labour over your barbecued body because you did something that you KNEW was dangerous! (Trust me, the smell of burnt person is not nice)

    Doc.
     
  12. <HR style="COLOR: #e5e5e5; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
    Can you listen to a radio in a farady cage? Of course. Therefore it doesn't stop RF does it?
    Oh no you cannot. Its whole purpose is to stop RF so perfect measurments can be made. I was one of the founding fathers of Certelecom Labs (First private EMF Lab in Canada and one of the first non government EMF labs) now part of the Norweigen company Nemco. (Which is how I retired at 47) We used farady cages and all that stuff to test for such things as we are tallking about right here. To make any test valid it has to be done in a shielded room otherwise outside or stray Rf can slew the results. A crystal set will quickly show there is a lot of strong RF around everywhereas those radios are powered by the antenna signal and nothing else. (Have one right behind me here)Our whole function at Certelecom was to test for things like you are talking about right now. Ie are the devices susseptibul to RF or emit RF. I am also a Ham radio operator VE3LYX so I play with RF everyday. A welder puts out a dirty signal or broadband . It would be hard to eliminate all of them. While I wasnt involved in the day to day running of the business (I am a Mech /machinist by trade) but I was the original sharehlder of the cooperation. One of my brothers next to me in the pecking oder AKA 3A (he is a twin but not to me) would know for sure and I will ask him today. He was later on a Inspector for CSA. My youngest brother AKA#5 also works in the field at UL Canada. I will ask them both if they ever tested a Pacemaker for such. My gut feeling is it is like asking "Can you shop at Wallmart naked? Maybe, but it is probably not a good idea." Many of us as we age get to a point where we cant do what we used to do. I am also in the boat in another area. I get someone to help me who can do what I can no longer do.
    Anyway I will ask Dave and Rae today what they know for sure about this.
    Don
     
  13. johnny bondo
    Joined: Aug 20, 2005
    Posts: 1,547

    johnny bondo
    Member
    from illinois

    all i know is, you get a jolt from a tig welder from a bad ground, your hearts got a bit of a pep in its step for the next hour lol!
     
  14. 42 chevy
    Joined: Nov 1, 2006
    Posts: 623

    42 chevy
    Member

    I have a spinal cord stimulator in my back to help with the constant pain. It is a similar device and they OK'ed welding with it. However if it was my heart I don't think I would risk it.
     
  15. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    I worked on a project where the design engineer had a pacemaker. In some people a pacemaker is there to help as needed. With this guy, without the pacemaker his heart would just stop. He said whenever he got near TIG welding he could feel something happening.

    TIG welding uses a high frequency arc for arc starting and as arc stabilization when aluminum welding. That high frequency generates a lot of RF. Some welders radiate more than others. Electronic devices tend to be effected by high frequency RF. "Regular" welding generates RF too, but the frequency is lower(and apparently not not strong?). Inverter welders and plasma cutters also generate high frequency RF. Not sure if the intensity of that is enough to be an issue.
     
  16. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    no one is, he's just asking if others have gone through this or what they think, the final decision will have to be the doctors or an engineer at the pacemaker company, the most logical information so far was the info I found from Medtronics about precautions to take when welding, I think the RF problem can be dealt with, the electric shock chance was what I would worry about, Everyone gets sloppy when welding and doesn't do what you are supposed to to prevent this, pacemaker or not, the shock from a welder CAN stop your heart, it only takes miliamps, you can kill someone with a 9 volt battery, if everyone followed the manufacturers warnings, dry surface, gloves ,ground correct etc, no one would get shocked welding. Most people get the "it can't happen to me mentality" , people have and will continue to die from welding, even without the pacemaker, by ignoring the basic safety rules, by being "tough" or in a hurry. the kind of amperage even a cheap walmart welder can make, can kill you. I get laughed at for wearing gloves etc when spot welding, lets see, that tabletop spot welder is a controlled short circuit, producing 1800 amps with the tongs I have on it, AC as well, and it will throw sparks and occasionally blow out molten metal at you, so I'm stupid wearing gloves, and a face mask, apron etc? just making a point.
     
  17. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,367

    31Apickup
    Member

    In all cases check with the manufacturer. There are different types such as single chamber, dual chamber and defibs. If it is a single chamber type that does not constantly pulse, you can weld. In that situation, the pacemaker will only pulse if it does not detect the body's electrical current to the heart. So if you are welding, it may not pulse if it is detecting the current from the welder. The current will not affect the programming of the pacemaker. The manufacturer's recommends when welding to stay as far away from the power source as possible, keep the cables away from your body (not over the shoulder etc). If you feel dizzy, stop welding. Also have someone around when welding. Due to some weird health event, I had a single chamber placed last year and thought that was the end of welding. After doing some research and asking alot of questions, I have been able to weld (mig) and use my plasma cutter. Always default to the side of safety and ask questions pertaining the your individual devise & circumstance.
     
  18. Gator
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,016

    Gator
    Member

    Hmmm. Never thought much about it, I've got an intrathecal pump in my abdomen that shoots morphine into my spine for chronic pain (fucked up my back really bad a few years ago) I never thought about the welder causing any interference - never had a problem with mine but good food for thought.
     
  19. joe_padavano
    Joined: Jan 18, 2010
    Posts: 263

    joe_padavano
    Member

    I specifically asked my cardiologist this question, since I may need a pacemaker. His response was arc/MIG/TIG is not a problem, but high freq/high voltage ignition systems ARE a problem. Basically he said don't get close when they are running.
     
  20. Bert Kollar
    Joined: Jan 10, 2007
    Posts: 1,232

    Bert Kollar
    Member

    Jimmy at Futuretech had one put in, checked with his doctor, got approval and has been welding just fine
     
  21. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Per my previous post.... Don't overlook that most TIG welders do have high frequency arc starting/stabilizing. And, inverter welders emit high frequency RF too.
     
  22. I've got a Miller Syncrowave 200 in the garage that I've had for the better part of a year. The unit has never been plugged in once. I haven't had the time to even try it, due to a crazy work schedule.

    In less than a week, I'm going to go under anesthesia for a quintuple cardiac bypass. The heart issues may end up ending my career, but at least I'll have more time to try out my toys. I'm told I'll be out of it for at least a couple days, but if for some reason I wake up with a welding-incompatible pacemaker?

    Apologies to your brother medical workers in advance, but I hope I stay in their nostrils for a week and a half.
     
  23. chuckles0
    Joined: Jan 8, 2009
    Posts: 117

    chuckles0
    Member

    Okay!! After reading all the post about this, made me think about some things. I have been wrenching for 45 yrs.
    I had a pacemaker /Defibrilltor inplant ,St.Jude unit ,since 04'.. I ask my Cardiologist and he told me I could weld up to 200 amps mig or tig , I never ask him about my arc welder, but I havn't used that in years. I have welded lots and lots and many hours since then. I also used my friends plasma cutter w/o any probs... However... When I go in for my 6mth. check ,(every 6 mth.) they can tell when I have been welding because of the frequency changes in the readings they get.. ( they can tell when I get lucky also :) )... I have never had a problem of being shocked. I have however felt alittle strange pacing ,when I stitch weld or run continous long ,long beads (heavy mat'l.).. I have lived a fast, rough,tough life ,and I'm not going to stop enjoying the things I love.
    I am also a, bi-lateral Below the knee amputee.. I built and ride my harley and my old cars. 2 of them are 3 speeds. I made hand controls for all of them. If I ever start feeling anything out of the ordinary.(for me) , I just stop, slow down, take it easy, then move on.. I have lived a good life and if 'gettin some', building , driving and racing gets me, well so be it. I just hope someone else dosen't get hurt.. This is me and only my opinion and bottom line , I hope I can continue to weld, because I just got a newer more state of the art unit put in Wed. the 29th Dec. I haven't welded with it yet, but I did go around the block in my hotrod 2 days ago.. :)..
    Sorry so long, but had to put my 2 cents in..
    NOTE: This is My experience. only!!!

    Please check out my new pics in albums
    Have fun
    Thank you, Dave
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
  24. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    I would check out that pacemakers club site, looks like great info in general for anyone with a pacemaker, don't forget to twist the cable together, this is why a lot of data cables are made this way, the high frequencies are out of phase with each other when you do this, and they cancel each other, not only for those with the pacemaker but it will stop a lot of interference with other devices in the garage
     
  25. I have now asked my 2 brothers both who worked in that Rf interference field. One said he believed it had been tested but was too busy to discuss right now. The other hasnt answered and then i remebered my distant cousin just retired from a company that makes them after about 20 + years. I also asked him. He was the company's link between manufacturer and Doctor. He is the guy that teaches them how to install PMs surgical joint replacements etc. This subject kinda brought me up with a jolt. I am suspicious I may have a heart problem. I never thought about what that could mean shop wise. Thanks for bringing it up. Now i want to know myself.
    Don
     
  26. joe_padavano
    Joined: Jan 18, 2010
    Posts: 263

    joe_padavano
    Member

    I had quintuple bypass about 15 months ago, and I've never felt better. You'll likely be out of it for more than just a couple of days, however. Took me over a week to really feel better and get sent home, then another month of doing not much at home. Just over a month, however, and I had to replace the timing chain in my daily driver Olds wagon. :D
     
  27. dragster
    Joined: Jul 13, 2010
    Posts: 21

    dragster
    Member

    thanks for your help
     
  28. I've had a pacemaker for 12 years. I'm on my second one now. I have a 220 145 amp wire feed and only use it to tack, no long welds. I can tell when it changes the rhythm of the pacemaker. They use magnets to change the beat of the pacemaker . When you weld it sets off a field that screws up the pacemaker. There are other things that gets it also.
    It has slowed down my building big time and I'm at a point on my car I need to weld. I'm thinking of getting a Henrob 2000 to do the body work.
    http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/

    Good luck on your quest
    Mick
     
  29. dragster
    Joined: Jul 13, 2010
    Posts: 21

    dragster
    Member

    Thats what i am thinking i need to do find an other way to finish my cars thanks for your reply
     
  30. The specs on Pacemakers and welders is called 6061 and is an international spec . It should be avaialable through any Gov standards council or even UL labs.
    My brother just phoned.
    Don
     

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