I like how no one has addressed the actual engineering in a spring. Can you weld a spring? Yes. Should you? that discussion is well under way. Will it live after? Only if properly tempered back to it's "spring" characteristics.. Unless... First consider the spring. If you are talking about a semi-elliptical arrangement as used under any given S-10 pickup, all of the above concerns ring true. But, if you are talking about a transverse leaf, life the front and rear of a Model A, then you have something else. If properly mounted, the center of the spring is clamped solid and the give all takes place outside the clamped area. Is a weld in the center of this solidly mounted stack a real issue? I doubt it, assuming the heat didn't destroy the temper beyond this area. For instance, what if I took a quarter elliptical spring (half of a semi) and mount it laterally, it equals half of the main leaf, right? Now mount another one facing the other side. Isn't this just a semi-elliptical pack split in two? What's the difference? Only the way it's mounted. Unless, you look at the quarter springs used on some very early Indy cars. They had the pack clamped just like a full transverse spring. I don't think it is correct to say that you can't shorten your spring by taking a piece out of the middle. Nor is it correct that you shouldn't. I think it would be fair to say that it all depends on how you do it. Notice that I haven't said what I thought you should do. I simply prefer an unbias consideration of the engineering behind the answers.
A wise man once asked, do you know why can and should are not only spelled differently, but don't share a single letter? Because they're completely different things.
Another HAMB Metallurgist answer: You CAN weld spring steel. The problem is just what many others have said, the spring is heat treat ed to be very strong. It is also fairly low ductility because it is so high strength. The problem is not whether you can make a weld on the spring, yes you can and if you follow good welding practice it will not have weld cracks. The problem is that the heat of the welding will screw up the heat treat in the region next to the weld area, officially called the heat affected zone. You will not be able to make the spring have the correct properties as-welded, period. You have to have it completely re-heat treated. Then it still has that weld area which will be different properties regardless. So just buy a new main leaf. Also heating spring to lower the car does the same thing, it fucks up the heat treatment that is designed into the spring. Cutting coils is cheap and easy, heating coils is stupid and lazy, you are asking for eventual spring failure. I know all these stories about how someone did it and it alsted xx,xxx miles. There are also stories of the guy that it failed at the wrong time. Don't weld to repair or heat springs to change their shape. Keep any high heat away from springs!
I had a torched spring on my 41 ford back in the 50's with 6 in. shackles.It didn't bottom out, the frame just layed on the rear.
Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on this. Even with the ubolts tight, the centre of the spring is hardly a rigid assembly. The crossmember is so flexible that the area of spring between the ubolts will always move. We have all seen broken crossmembers and leaves that are cracked through the centre bolt. 38Chevy454 hit the nail square on the head ( as always ). The heat treatment, grain structure and 99.9% chance the chemical properties of the weld will be totally wrong for the intended use. It would IMHO be FAR safer to rivet a repair on a spring than to weld it. And I don't think anyone is about to do that.
I think I read all this. Your spring is too long? Cantcha cut a bit of each end and reroll the eyes. Then your spring would be shorter.And no welding involved.
Spring shops don't unroll an eye to reroll it. We re-arch the spring steel to the opposite correct curve. The only proceedure thats not done with "cold spring steel" in the spring shop is to heat the steel to roll and eye. Rearching and fitting leaves is all done cold. When we make a spring eye, we heat the end of the leaf, put into a hand operated machine that grabs the tip end of the spring steel and manually draws it over a die. The spring leaf is cut to a calculated length based on how much steel is needed to go over the circumfrence of the bushing to be pressed in one or each end. The spring leaf is heated again and allowed to air cool. A broken spring leaf has a different grain structure appearance than mild steel visible at the failure point. A leaf spring that has been welded across the width of the spring has a different breakage appearance because of how the weld compromised the metal. A welded spring is as safe as a spliced driveshaft. Good for getting it in and out of the shop, safe under 5 mph. If welding was as flexible as spring steel, we would be using another means to build frames, etc. FWIW, been around a spring shop every day since mid '88. Heavy truck too.
What if on the driveshaft splice and where you weld the spring, you get it red hot then smear jb weld on it just as it cools, then stick it in some old motor oil mixed with marvel mystery oil? I heard that you can save a couple of bucks by doing that and it might not fail in a critical moment. My cousin Billy ran his truck that way for six years and didn't kill any families on the road. I thought it might be worth a try. What do you guys think? wil www.sakowskimotors.com
I had this company build a completely custom set of three leaf spring packs for my 68 Camaro a couple years ago. $400 shipped from their shop in Washington to Ohio and it took less than two weeks. http://www.pohlsprings.com/
Wil, For that to work it must be painted black. Black enamel, not lacquer. This step is very important. I knew four guys (one of them was named Billy) and they did it. None of them got their cars running, but I am pretty sure it would have worked. Marvel mystery oil can be purchased in bulk and Crest tootpast works if you dont have JB weld because the tubes are made in the same factory in China. Jim
Good question, and it kind of gets to an important point. A leaf spring has it's maximum bending load at the center. Ever wonder why there are more leaves near the middle, and fewer at the ends? it's because of the loading...bending loads are far greater where the spring is supported, then they are at the end. So if you really feel like you have to weld on a spring (not a good idea because of the metallurgy), do it at the the eye of the spring, not at the center. And don't take it out on the road.
Sounds like a cool deal to me. Doesn't MM oil need to applied with a Real McCoy. I've seen a lot of cobbled up shit and torn up vehicles from both deals.
My solutions have been. 1. Move rear shackle mount back & redrill main leaf mount so you effectivly move the axle back. Squarebirds & 55-56 fords really need this, and besides the new hole drilled & the old are still within the Axle/spring bolt pad so the reduced stress is spread over about 8 sq inches. and the additional leafs are more stress support. (kind of the opposite of what Squirrel said but yes maximum stress is at the center, but max shear at the ends) 2. Just go to a salvage yard & find the correct length spring. If it's to wide just reduce the width at the front & rear mounts by grinding, not a torch, to avoid heat affected zones. Movin/on
CAN A SPRING BE WELDED? YES, BY A BLACKSMITH! in the late 70's i watched an 80 year-old blacksmith---[originally from england] heat a broken antique rolls royce spring--how cool watching an englishman repair an english car leaf spring-- he heated both ends in a forge. laid the two ends together and hammer-welded the two pieces into a single unit. the fusing process took many trips to the forge! then he carefully quinched it in a 55 gallon barrel of waste oil, using a large flat file to determine by color, the proper temper of the cooling spring! IT WAS THE NEATEST PROCESS I'VE EVER WATCHED! the ole gentleman was in his glory, using a skill he was rarely called-upon to use! the shop is still in business today, as i recall the business was started in the 1920's. his grandson's continue the welding and fabricating aspect... i suspect the blacksmith equipment is still there. BUT NEVER used as grandpa used it that day! only place with a working blacksmith shop in the area is THE GREENFIELD VILLAGE at the henry ford museum. thanx red ryder
And there ya go!I haved watched spring welded many many times and do it myself.Spring steel is one of a blacksmiths favorit materials.When doing a forge weld you are joining the parent metal without filler so you don't have the miss match of materials like a electric weld.What you are doing is creating a new spring because of the annealing/welding and heat treating process needed to make the weld.So yes springs can be safely welded but like I said before in this day and age there are very rare instances where doing this for a car is even worth the effort.one of the places where spring steel is welded on a regular basis today is in the art of blade smithing.Also you might want to keep in mind that most of your early auto tradesman started out as BLACKSMITHS!They had the tools and "garage"space to handle the repairs of autos as the auto replaced horse and wagon it was a natural transistion.The Marcy family here several generations worth of blacksmiths and one of the first settlers in this area all became auto repair tradesman.6 seperate blacksmith shops became garages.
Jesus, just fucking take it to a spring shop and get them to shorten it and bend up new eyes. You can save a few bucks by attempting to be a blacksmith and do it yourself, then watch it break, putting yourself and others in harms way, and costing more money to fix. Or you can spend a few bucks and have a spring shop do it the right way. I spent $40 to have a mainleaf shortened at a spring shop for a drag car... money well spent.
they kept lowering themselfs as you drove the car the temper was gone from the spring so it just became a piece of steel. and hell no they wern't safe.
Even the blacksmiths here have said to buy a new spring leaf !It still doesn't change the fact spring steel can be welded SAFELY with experience and you don't get that by beating on a couple of springs!Completely hand making a spring from raw stock to finished spring is not as lost an art as most think,But with the easy access to spring shops today there is no reason to go through all that work for something that can be bought so cheaply.Spring shops today AND blacksmiths from the past BOTH "do it the right way "Induction furnaces have replaced forges in modern spring shops but I bet if you look around in a spring shop that has been around a long time you will find a Blacksmiths forge out back, Ballard Spring out here has several modern technology has made the process faster and cheaper but the basics are still the same.
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