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WC T5 to a SBC... How? Please help.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by nailheadroadster, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    I have been searching for almost three weeks now and the info I get constantly contradicts other info. Please help me out here.

    The gearbox = 1993 S10 World Class T5 5 speed, bolt pattern to stock bellhousing is "Mustang" or "Ford" style... NOT the earlier "muncie" style.

    The engine = 1995 SBC.

    The Camaro / Firebird bellhousing is out due to the 17 degree gearbox twist to the left.

    The 4.3 Astro bellhousing is out due to the fact they they don't make em anymore.

    Please help. Any and all info will be greatly appreciated.

    Regards, Dave
     
  2. raven
    Joined: Aug 19, 2002
    Posts: 4,305

    raven
    Member

    Use the Camero/TRans-Am box. The only reason it tilts, is the bellhousing.
    This is exactly what I'm using for my truck.
    1970 Vintage 350
    1958 vintage sbc truck bellhousing
    1987 vintage Trans-Am Firebird

    Slick, easy and very few mods.
    r
     
  3. Use any V-8 bellhousing aftermarket or factory.
    Get a clutch plate to match tranny to size of flywheel
    Use a Camaro tranny or an S-10 tranny
    If using a bench seat use the S-10 tailpiece
    Drill out the 4 bolt holes to 1/2 inch
    Call it done...
     
  4. raven
    Joined: Aug 19, 2002
    Posts: 4,305

    raven
    Member

    FYI-
    You really don't want to use the S-10 tranny behind a sbc.
    It won't last very long.
    r
     
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  5. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Thanks for the info. I may not have been clear though. I'm sorry.

    I already have the 1993 S10 World Class T5 with the "Ford" bolt pattern. The earlier Camaro / Firebird and S10 T5's were Non-World Class and had the "Muncie" bolt pattern. The 1993 WC T5 has a different bolt pattern than the earlier NWC gearbox you guys are reffering to.

    I have done the NWC T5 installation behind a SBC before. Using the old Muncie bellhousing is the quickest way to do it. However, the bolt pattern of the WC T5 is not even close to the Muncie pattern. This is where the problem begins. "Any V-8 bellhousing" will NOT work with a WC T5.
     
  6. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Hi Raven,

    I have heard this before many times, but I have an 87 S10 NWC (one of the "weak" T5s) behind a mild 355 SBC in my 66 C-10 and it has lasted over 4 years for me. Granted, I don't have slicks on the back and I don't bring it up to 5000 RPM and dump the clutch, but she has stood up to more than a few tire-spinning exits. LOL

    I'm relatively sure the stronger 1993 WC T5 will do what I need it to do.
     
  7. RacerRick
    Joined: May 16, 2005
    Posts: 2,753

    RacerRick
    Member

    The only way you can mount that T5 to a SBC is with a conversion bellhousing like the Mcleod modular one. You would also need a special input shaft bushing for the end of the crank and a special clutch disk made most likely.

    IIRC the ford input shaft is shorter than the chevies and will not work with the deeper chevy bellhousing.

    GM did make a WC T5 in the F-bodies. The only thing to watch for is that the trans mount is tilted 17 degrees.

    THe Astrovan bell is still available in wrecking yards for about $100 but won't work with your ford trans.
     
  8. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Alright here goes again, I am really trying to be clear about what I am trying to do, but I guess it is not coming out right. One more try...

    The gearbox is a 1993 World Class T5 out of a 1993 Chevy S10 with a 2.2 liter engine.

    I am trying to put it behind a 1995 SBC.

    It seems that everyone thinks a T5 has a "Muncie" style bolt pattern when in actuality, they changed that in (I believe) 1991. At the same time the bolt pattern changed from the Muncie style to the Ford style, the T5s were upgraded to World Class internals and hold up to more power.

    So, in conclusion...

    1993 Chevy S10 T5 to a 1995 SBC... How do ya do it?

    Thanks to everyone for their patience. Please help me.
     
  9. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I understand you perfectly.

    First things first - are you certain you have a '93 S10 gearbox? Or do you have a Ford gearbox with an S10 tailhousing? You got the tag number?

    Next - if you do have the oddball GM/Ford case, you're SOL. There is no easy way to adapt this to a GM bellhousing. Normally, I'd tell you to get the Lakewood bellhousing to put a toploader behind a SBC, then use the adapter the early Mustang bubbas use to put a T5 where a toploader used to live. The problem is, I don't think the input shaft on the GM hybrid trans is the same as a Ford T5 which all of this would be based on.

    You're effectively in uncharted territory. Your better bet would be to find a GM WC case and swap the guts into it, then use any SBC bellhousing...
     
  10. BigChief
    Joined: Jan 14, 2003
    Posts: 2,045

    BigChief
    Member

    Not exactly..... There were Jeeps made with a 4 banger Pontiac Iron Duke motor. (Early 80's maybe?) and the bellhousing had SBC engine bolt pattern and the Ford T-5 transmission pattern. Find that bellhousing and its back to a simple bolt-in proposition.

    -Bigchief.
     
  11. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Good point, BigChief - I'd forgotten about that. What I'm still not confident on, however, is the input shaft length for that setup vs the input shaft length on the GM/Ford hybrid T5...but well worth checking out - they pop up on eBay regularly and are relatively inexpensive.
     
  12. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Bigchief... Thank you for the info. It's much appreciated.

    I just measured the input shaft length and from the case to the tip of it is 7 1/8". I do not have a NWC T5 here to measure... Is there anyone out there that just might have one sittin in their shop that could give me the same measurement? Please.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  13. jerry
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,474

    jerry
    Member

    On an NWC camaro t-5 the same measurement is 6 3/4 inches. Looks like the pilot length is different.


    jerry
     
  14. skumbag
    Joined: Feb 16, 2005
    Posts: 688

    skumbag
    Member

    i have a w.c. t-5 out of a 1993 s-10 pickup that had the 4 cyl. in it (i dont remember what size it was) and it bolted up fine to my '57 bellhousing. i've had no problems with it behind my sbc i've abused it quite a bit and it's held up great. of course now that i said that........

    matt
     
  15. Hard Luck
    Joined: Apr 7, 2004
    Posts: 432

    Hard Luck
    Member

    Sounds like you're wanting to do, basically, the same thing my dad very recently did with his '65 El Camino.

    He used the 283, a '55 Chevy car bellhousing, and a Ford WC T5. It's a Fox-body Mustang tranny, and it sounds like it has the same bolt pattern as what you have. He used a piece of 3/4" (if I remember correctly) aluminum to make an adapter/spacer. The input shaft is longer on the T5 than the 3 speed that was in it, so the aluminum spacer/adapter worked perfectly. He's been a machinist/tool and die maker for 30 years, so he knows what he's doing. ;)

    If you're interested, I may be able to get pictures and find out exactly what he did.

    Hope some of that helps. :eek:

    -Aaron
     
  16. JF
    Joined: May 15, 2008
    Posts: 511

    JF
    Member
    from Utah

    I have a 1984 1352-061 NWC \Camaro shaft length 6 5/8" maybe 6 3/4" ?
    also a 1984 1352-041 NWC Chevy S10 length 7 1/8"


    I also have a WC 88 Trans am 1352-175 Length 6 5/8" maybe 6 3/4"
    I may need to calibrate my rubber tape measure? LOL

    Josh
     
  17. wingedexpress
    Joined: Dec 24, 2006
    Posts: 894

    wingedexpress

    Is there enough material to redrill a camero or muncie bellhousing to the ford pattern? Or redrill a swapmeet blowproof bell.
     
  18. Is your tranz a Cyclone, or Typhoon tranz? I didn’t know the regular S-10 came with a WC T5, or a Ford tranz for that matter? I have an 89 IROC T-5 and am using an S-10 bell housing no probs.
     
  19. slim53
    Joined: Apr 24, 2005
    Posts: 399

    slim53
    Member

    Those trucks were all automatics.
     
  20. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Man, I LOVE this place!!! Thank you guys for all the info. With the newer WC T5's being so plentiful and stronger than the earlier T5's, I figured someone had to have done this swap already.

    <O:p
    Jerry - Thank you for the measurement.
    <O:p
    <O:p
    Skumbag - (nice freakin name dude! LOL) It seems odd how many different variations there are of the T5. I have 2 of these gearboxes, they look identical and both have a 216 stamped on the tag. That breaks down to :
    <O:p
    <O:p
    1352-216 GM 1993 MY 2.2L S-Truck WC 3.76 4.03 2.37 1.49 1.00 0.76
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p
    All the research I have done says that the Chevy T5’s all went to the “Ford” bolt pattern by 93. I have no idea how yours bolted up to a “Muncie” pattern bellhousing. As far as you sayin you have never had trouble with yer gearbox… Ask me what brought me to this new T5 dilemma? LOL “Never had any problems with that 39 trans!” LOL The kiss of death mang!. I’m sure you’ll be fine though.
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p

    Hard Luck – Consider me interested! Would yer dad be interested in selling another one?
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p

    JF – Thanks for the measurement also. It looks like the early NWC and later WC T5’s had the same length input shaft. Thank you again.
    <O:p
    <O:p
    Wingedexpress – Unfortunately, the bottom 2 mounting holes on the newer WC T5’s hang down about 2” lower than the earlier NWC T5’s and most “Muncie” style bellhousing do not have any material that low. An adapter plate would need to fabricated.
    <O:p
    <O:p
    Scrap Iron – The earlier T5’s would mount up. It’s the newer T5’s that are causing me problems. Mounting up an earlier T5 to a “Muncie” style bellhousing is not a big deal at.
     
  21. skumbag
    Joined: Feb 16, 2005
    Posts: 688

    skumbag
    Member

    yeah i'd have to crawl under the car to check the tag (i forget what the numbers are) i remember looking it up and it said it was a '93. maybe mine was a late '92 or early '93. i dont know...when i was researching all the t-5 stuff i went back through Flat Ernie's posts. he know's his shit when it comes to t-5's. good luck.

    matt
     
  22. skumbag
    Joined: Feb 16, 2005
    Posts: 688

    skumbag
    Member

    another thing....i kept trying to buy just a cluch disk when i put mine in cause i already had everything else i needed... o'reilly's, autozone, napa all wanted to sell me a kit with pressure plate, disk, and throw out bearing i think for like $175. they said i couldnt buy just the disk. i ended up going to a brake and clutch place and getting just the disk for like $30.
     
  23. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Good info, thanks. How many spline is yer input shaft? You remember?
     
  24. RacerRick
    Joined: May 16, 2005
    Posts: 2,753

    RacerRick
    Member

    2.8L V6 and 2.2L 4 bangers had different patterns on the trans BTW - one used ford, and the other used the standard GM pattern. I think that they started that in the early 90's.
     
  25. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,640

    Snarl
    Member

    Nailhead,

    Since your tranny has the longer input shaft, just like the earlier S10 versions, and the "regular" Chevy is about 6 1/2", that would mean you have room to move the tranny back and use an adapter plate. I'm sure there is a plate out there to go from Ford to Chevy. Otherwise, one of those Jeep bellhousings would be the way to go.

    I assume your '93 tranny has a 4 11/16" input collar?

    Another option, If you have a normal Chevy bellhousing laying around (aluminum version), put that T5 up to it and see if the holes fall where there is enough meat to where you could have a shop weld in some threaded slugs. I've done this with other swaps before.

    Keep in mind your flywheel size. All of the bells mentioned so far are for the 153 tooth flywheel. If you are planning on running a 168 tooth flywheel, you will need to go the adapter plate or welded slug route.

    The largest clutch on the 153 tooth flywheel is 10 1/2". Your tranny is 26 splines. I'm not sure there is a 10 1/2" clutch with 26 splines available, so you will be needing a custom made disc.
    The larger flywheel can use the 11", and those are available with 26 splines in '80's V8 Camaro's.


    There is no "perfect" solution. You will need to modify something to get it all to work...


    Edit: this assumes factory stuff. If Lakewood or Advance adapters makes a bell that fits and can use the larger flywheel, then you're all set for a 168 tooth flywheel and 11" clutch. No special disc, etc...

    Another edit:
    I was digging around the Napa website to see if I could find a 26 spline 10 1/2" clutch disc, and I found one! I searched '88 Camaro...
    http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPag...PartNumber=MU561&Description=Clutch+Set+-+New

    So, if you get the Jeep bell, use the '88 Camaro 305 153 tooth flywheel and this disc, you should be good to go...

    Don't forget to shorten the input shaft and collar should you end up NOT using an adapter...
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  26. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    What I've found is that despite what the books say (all '93 GM T5 used Ford case pattern), both were available in '93. It must've been a transition year.

    Nope - not what he wants to do.

    Unknown, but largely unneeded.

    No it isn't a Cyclone/Typhooon (neither came with T5 to my knowledge). All GM T5 went WC about '93 and some used Ford case pattern. '89 is before the '93 cutoff...

    As mentioned above, '93 appears to be a transition year for case patterns - it may have been application specific, but I haven't been able to nail it down. I've also been told by two reliable sources that they have in their posession '93 WC w/4.03 gearset...there are a wide variety of T5 trans even within the same family...

    Bingo.
     
  27. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Great info guys. Thank you very much.

    Snarl - You mentioned that you would think an adapter plate would be available to go from the "Muncie" bolt pattern to the "Ford" pattern... Any idea where I might find that plate? That little item would make my life a lot easier. Thank you for the clutch info also.

    Ernie - So 93 had both bolt patterns??? It would figure that I'm lucky enough to have 2 of em here with the Ford pattern.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  28. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I think Snarl mentioned using the Iron Duke Jeep bellhousing (chevy engine pattern, Ford tranny pattern)

    Well, "academic" research shows ONLY Ford pattern, but hands-on reports both. I've learned to not be surprised by anything T5 related...
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2008
  29. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,523

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    Found out that Wilcap makes an adapter plate that has the "Ford" pattern and the "Muncie" pattern. They are askin $250 for it though! **choke** Looks like I may make an adapter for mine.

    Typically when installing a T5 behind a SBC, I have had to trim about a 1/4" off the end of the input shaft so it didn't bottom out in the crank. So I'm thinkin a 1/4" spacer/adapter plate would be perfect.

    The bottom 2 holes of the gearbox hang about 1 1/4" below the "Muncie" bellhousing
    though. Do you guys think a 1/4" 6061 aluminum plate would be good enough or would you go with steel? The plate will be bolted to all four holes of the bellhousing and it will hang down below it to be able to bolt the gearbox to it.

    The engine will be a stock 1995 305 TBI.

    Thoughts?
     
  30. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Check the Jeep Iron Duke bellhousing as mentioned by Snarl.

    But if you make your own, make sure you have a way to align the input shaft of the trans with the crankshaft. Most good adapters have a raised ring that indexes in the bellhousing hole. Do not use the bolt holes alone to align your transmission.

    With only 1/4", I'd go with steel.
     

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