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Water sanding and buffing problems

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by fitzee, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. fitzee
    Joined: Feb 26, 2003
    Posts: 2,862


    Been at these trade for over 25 years and in the last number of years I am starting to notice a problem that keeps coming back. I painted a customers truck last year, base clear, and water sand and buff the rig. now when it left my shop it looked great. A few weeks back the customer came back to me so I can give it a once over making sure everthing was safe before he started using it agian.Well looking at the finsh on the truck I notice that the water sanding marks returned. I have run into this problem before with buffing a car that had paint on it only days old. I tried to avoid this with this truck and let the paint dry for a few weeks and when I water sanded it left it alone for another week then buffed it. The clear coat I use is Dupont and talking it over with one of my local paint reps and he said to me that the paint can take up to a year to dry and if you open up the paint this problem can happen!! Come on!! that is nuts. so ever custom paint job I do I have to wate a year before I buff it?? I`m thinking it is the product and in the last number of years Dupont has changed there clearcoat line a number of times and todays clears don`t have the hardners that clears had 10 years ago. I know there is alot of other product out there and I am wondering if this is just a problem with Dupont. Has anybody come across this problem and if so what did you do to fix it. This problem is pissing me off cause I try to give my customers top notice paint work and having problems like this coming back a year later makes my work look bad.
  2. 52style
    Joined: Mar 22, 2009
    Posts: 326


    ive had problems wet sanding anything that hasnt been in an oven or hasnt had months in the hot sun to bake on never could afford the dupont myself though
  3. My friend who has been in the body business for 35 years just dropped Dupont and went to PPG. Dupont would not stand behind a restoration where the paint failed.
    This is big dollars today.
  4. olddrags
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 476

    from ky

    Wow," Paint taking a year to cure"? I thought I had heard every excuse the paint reps use to keep from admitting it could be their products fault! May check into if its a baking clear or an air dry clear. Sounds like from your description its likely a solvent problem. Good luck!

  5. mazdaslam
    Joined: Sep 9, 2004
    Posts: 2,524


    I have noticed the same thing .I have been using DuPont clear for like 15 years and the last few base/clear jobs I have done have the same problems that you describe.I wet sand with 1200 then 1500 and buff.It looks like glass for the first few days but then you can start to see the wet sand scratches.
    Outside you cant see the scratches but in the shop you sure can.I have been thinking about changing my brand of clear.
  6. fitzee
    Joined: Feb 26, 2003
    Posts: 2,862


    So I`m not alone. I remember the old 7500 clear was like a rock and if you let it dry too long it was a bitch to buff. This new stuff is nothing but trouble. Duponts lower line,Nason, also has the same problem. I have used this and run into the same problem. I`ll find out tomorrow. i just water sanded and buffed a 65 Mustang today. I`ll see it there is any change tomorrow.
  7. Customs&Color
    Joined: Jan 16, 2009
    Posts: 105


    What kind of compound are you using? I've had similar problems when I used the newer 3M 3000 compound. It is a chemical cut instead of having abrasives in it. I think it has a lot of fillers in it. The car will look good until the fillers are gone and then the scratches show back up. I switched back to the older compound and haven't had any more problems.
  8. CheaterRome
    Joined: Jul 19, 2002
    Posts: 371

    from URANUS

    Usually buff after 1500???? I have a feeling it might be lack of 2000 and 3000 sanding. .

    I dunno I was always brought up on wet sand 1500,2000,3000 by hand....

    Then buff with 3m rough cut (white compound) on a wool pad and then finish polish (grey compound) with foam waffle pad.

    Then again the shop uses PPG.

  9. Xdrag48
    Joined: Mar 1, 2009
    Posts: 470


    I have always use Dupont and have never had a big problem.I finish wet with 1500 and buff with Meguiars.I was told that dry time is about 100 hrs. in @70 degree weather.Looks good even after a couple of years....But i will keep watching from now on...

  10. jm36072
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 11


    i worked at a rod shop a couple years ago and i thought our painter rushed between coats, like a five to ten minute flash time. Not a lot of time to let under laying solvents dry. It seemed like every time we color sanded and buffed it would never come out right, always clowdy or some other problem. maybe an oven would be an easy fix.
  11. mcisneros
    Joined: Sep 9, 2005
    Posts: 93


    try and cut it again, then buff it with some better compunds. if it still doesnt work, cut it with 600 and reclear it with some better production clear.
  12. It sounds more like the paint is not actually being buffed right from the start. A lot of polishing products use fillers to increase production at collision shops. They gloss up quickly and the paint looks good when delivered to the customer. It will last for a couple of weeks or until it has been washed a couple of times and then the fillers wash out of the scatches and it looks like crap again. The average joe knows no better and never says anything so it works in that industry. Not so cool with custom paint I would suggest using a different polish and see if that helps.
  13. plodge55aqua
    Joined: Jan 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,711

    from Alberta

    Are you using the Water based system? is this the type of clear that goes rock hard and hard to sand? we are using the new Sikkens Water base. we have been told the clear will be rock hard after 72 hours.and it requires a diamond dust paper to cut the product for polishing and there special sauce compounds... the old clear would cure completely in 90 days and was more forgiving.... may be try a different cutting compound and pads.. some of the old methods will not work..
  14. rjarret1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 15


    We also had problems with some of the compounds,the fillers make it look smooth and shiny until they wear off but you hav'nt actually buffed all the scratches out there just hiding
  15. fitzee
    Joined: Feb 26, 2003
    Posts: 2,862


    This is what I used.They did a demo on this 3000 system on this truck I did.I have been using G3 fecula(Spelling!!) for years.I did have the same problems with the G3 but it came back within a few days.I blamed that on not letting it dry and water sanding and buffing the same day.

    You might be on to something here,
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,224


    The problem is that the sand scratches are not getting cut down. The newer clears are more dense than hard. You polish away to a pretty gloss, all looks good, later on the scratches cool down and "stand back up" in a way. Sounds wierd, I know, but that's it. To fight it you need to go all the way to 3000, and you need to spend a shitload of time with the 3000. Trizact (sp) pads on a fine orbital like a Dynabrade, lots of soapy water and higher than normal speed, spend the time on each panel to make sure it's flattened out. Afterwards the polishing can be done with swirl remover, again at higher than normal speeds (be careful), but the actual cut time with the buffer will be less than 1/2 of what you're used to. The finish will be twice what you're used to. I prefer Meguires 3 for the 1st cut. This is the only way I've found to get concours quality out of most any "4 to 1" clear offered.

    FWIW, I've never had good luck with DuPont clears. Lots of $$$ and more often than not exponentially more work for the final look. Basically I hate the shit...
  17. OK I work for 3M and make my living calling on Body Shops so lets go.
    Note all these products are designed to work with todays high solids clearcoats

    Step 1- sand panel with 1200-1500 to get it flat and eliminate the dirt
    Step 2- Use the Trizact 3000 pads on any DA with plain water- do not soak the pad, just use a spray bottle to keep it moist- go over the area around 10-15 times. Doing this will cut your rub time in half
    Step 3- Use the new 6085 Pervect it OR 6060 P-3000 compound with a open coat - non twisted wool pad at 1800 rpm
    Step 4- Usue 6064 Machine Polish with a grey waffle pad with some pressure at 1800 rpm to cut the compound scratches, ease up on the pressure to polish
    Step 5 - if its a black car use the ultrafine machine polish with the matching blue pad and keep it wet, wipe off the panel

    Refer to our website for a how to. I have taught hundreds of people proper paint finishing over the years. The reason the scratches "came back" is because they werent gotten rid of in the first place. Take your time , don't move around too fast on the panel. Keep the wheel speed below 2000 RPM. When all else fails use a 50/50 solution of alcohol and water to wipe the panel down. This will remove any fillers and give a true representation of your work. Good Luck and I hope this helps you out
  18. autobodyed
    Joined: Mar 5, 2008
    Posts: 1,943

    from shelton ct

    i've noticed the same problem recently and come to the conclusion that it's the compound and not the paint. all these companies trying to re-invent the wheel with all these new fangled compounds instead of sticking to what works. i know the paint and clears are different now, blah blah blah, but i buff these new clears the same way i buffed laquer 20 years ago and never have a problem when taking your time. i have an oven and therefore can usually de nib in a couple of hours, but i don't unless i really have to. the key is getting all the scratches out before moving on to the next steps. i found that if you finish with 2000 grit and use a super cut grit compound, wool or foam pad at 2000 rpm's, slowing working the compound to pickup all your scratches, wash the car, and let sit for a few hours in the sun, then rebuff with the same process you will be able to finish the job without any reoccuring scratches coming back. you really have to take your time and not rush the most important step in a quality paint job. if you don't have an oven, wait a couple of days, wet sand and wash the entire car, and let that sit for a day before the buffing. this works for me, it should work for you. it's not rocket science but it is an art. good luck.
  19. LUX BLUE
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,407

    Alliance Vendor
    from AUSTIN,TX

    I have had issues with the scratches "dying back"...and at first, I figured I had either not sanded properly (i used the trizact pads after 2000) and didn't buff enough.

    so I buffed it some more. I had the advantage of being in really good indirect sunlight. what I noticed was a little unnerving. the buffing compound was leaving marks.

    so, I switched compounds. went with a lighter compound. same result.

    so, I switched pads. (from wool to "egg crate") same result.

    by this time, I was really frustrated, and concerned that I was going to burn through the clear. so I cussed it and went home.

    the next morning, on the car with it nice and cool, it was fine. by the time I moved to a part of the car that was warmed by the sun, presto! problem was back.

    I have never, ever, seen a paint that got softer as it got warmer. I actually went back and re-checked my cans to make sure that I hadn't added something I shouldn't have or otherwise fucked up my mix. nope.

    I have since decided that "production clears" just suck dick.

    I am switching back to House of Kolor. the money spent on materials seems to weigh out in blood and sweat.
    Joined: Feb 9, 2003
    Posts: 682


    Were you using an Air or Electric buffer? .......... had a paint rep ask me that once!:D

    I final cut with 3000, most any compound works for me after that.
  21. fitzee
    Joined: Feb 26, 2003
    Posts: 2,862


    This is what I did to the letter. I had our 3M rep came in a did a demo on this truck.I loved the finsh and it was maybe the best finsh I ever seen on a truck. I was sold on the system till this pass week.
  22. Dude, I'm gonna agree with what's been said about "too much filler material" in the new compounds. 3M gets something that works(the old Perfect-it III extra cut) , then they "improve" it :rolleyes: The new 3 step system sucks, in my humble yet experienced opinion.:(
  23. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,953

    from Central NJ

    I'd tend to say its your materials as well. I'm an HOK and PPG man myself and I've never had any issues. I also use 3M compounds and polishes. Change one variable at a time and see if it helps. I'd start first with the polish as mentioned since thats the easiest. If that doesn't help maybe it is the clear you're using.
  24. fitzee
    Joined: Feb 26, 2003
    Posts: 2,862


    On that paint job it was all Dupont. Base and clear. As for Farecla, I have been using that buffing system for as long as I can remember. Never had a need to change, the new 3M system is cleaner with the use of less water and it was interesting how the 3000 was used with a air sander.
  25. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 5,563

    from Ks

    I shoot em, let it set a day, 1500 it, 2,000 it, hit it with a foam waffle and perfect-it. Done. I use PPG only. [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,224


    Some "yes' and "no" here.

    I'll say it again, most every "4 to 1" clear on the market is the same. For months they'll soften with heat on custom finishes where higher than normal mil thickness is common. There's 2 problems. 1st is solvent penetration into all of the substrates. The clear cures and it can take months for the solvent to get out. Sanding and letting it sit "open" helps, but then the work becomes a task that requires patience and time. The clear is like the difference between lexan and glass.

    Here's that 2nd problem. Lexan bends before it breaks, glass doesn't. Our old beloved custom lacquer finishes were "glass" by comparison to the current crop of mat'ls. The sanding scratches will 'bend over' from the heat of polishing, the heat will almost always soften the clear. Polishing can generate a substantial amount of heat between the pad and the surface. Once it cools the scratches 'stand back up' and we in the trade call it 'die back' when it really was never cut level to begin with. I'm constantly amazed at the cars that I see in shows, really big shows too, that there's die back and the dreaded urethane 'cellulite' all over.

    Loveoftiki has it right. Constant polishing to finer and finer grits, all the way to 3000, is the only answer. The built in durability of urethane clear is as much a friend as it is an enemy. Cutting and buffing early is easier but that's when the cellulite shows up once the finish totally cured.

    FWIW, I used to love HOK clear. Something changed along the way and that hard glass finish doesn't last and is almost impossible to repair without ringing up around the edges, sometimes even fully crazing. I really miss DAU82 Delglo clear from PPG. None of this was ever a problem and it was the most 'lacquer' looking urethane you could get. HOK was just like it. Apparently the enviro regs required a fromula change and we got what we got. Good luck with this new stuff. I hope this reply makes sense and helps your perspective. Not impossible, just a shit load of work.
  27. We still have the PN 6060 Perfect it 3000 extra cut available. It much better than the old Perfect it III when it comes time for clean up. The new 6085 Perfect it compund pulls a shine extremely fast which is both good and bad. Most guys feel since it's shiny I am done, when in reality they probably need to stay on it a little longer to let the mineral do it's job. When you dont stay on it the scratches arent removed
  28. Skrayp
    Joined: May 31, 2008
    Posts: 197


    I use the Chroma Premier system, and its been like that since day one. I've narrowed it down to the compounding as well. All this new stuff from 3M is like snake oil. I don't understand what the thinking is behind it. I still use the original perfect-it compounds and polishes. Super Duty rubbing compound with a black strata wool pad, using a spray bottled of water to control surface temp and keep the pad clean. Then I take a white waffle pad with Finesse-It micro-finishing compound and it almost looks done by this point. Then I use the black foam polishing pad with the foam pad polish. Using the water really helps alot. I will keep rubbing until all the residue is gone and repeat with more compound until it almost looks polished. For a final slick down, I'll use a fast flashing sealant like Car-Brite Quick seal ,applying with an orbital. I let it flash and wipe it down with those microfiber towels and meguiar's detail spray. I really like DuPont clears, despite the die back issues, because the end result is a much "clearer" clear finish. I can really make that shit glow, and people notice. I used to use PPG and the clears would turn pissy yellow when you activated them. I can remember trying to match whites and would have to use a lighter variance to counter the yellowing from the clear. I could still make that shit glow too, but I'm much happier with DuPont. It actually sticks to stuff too lol.
  29. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,953

    from Central NJ

    That I agree with. I ordered a bottle for stock of Perfect It III Extra Cut and they said it superceded to 06060. I got the bottle and tried a little and loved it. I put the unsed portion of the original etxra cut on the shelf!
  30. dawg
    Joined: Mar 18, 2008
    Posts: 346


    I was a DuPont guy for years, even spent about a year as a field rep. I recently changed to Sikkens, as the problems you described (among others) started popping up. (love the Sikkens BTW) I also agree with what has been said about the 3m stuff, some of it works, and for some things I like McGuires better. The DuPont clear is your biggest problem though, it just stays soft too long. They have changed to formulas so many times in recent years, it's hard to keep up with what they are calling the product line...

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