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Technical Wanting to pick up a Chassis/Engineering/Design Book, Recomendations?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tlmartin84, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    Debating between Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken, or Chassi Engineering by Herb Adams.

    Any input on these books?
     
  2. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,598

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    I have the Herb Adams book.

    He was fired by GM for not putting the intended mistakes in the blue prints for the GM 1970 to 1979 suspension molds.. GM didn't want there low priced cars to handle an ride as good as the expensive cars.
    I remember the first time I drove a 1973 Pontiac GTO 400 4 speed. Man did that car handle..
     
    31 B'ville likes this.
  3. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 35,164

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Most books out there are a bit dated at this point. Read with a grain of salt.
     
    seb fontana likes this.
  4. Check out Jerry Bickel racecars. They have a great book on tube chassis and a couple on tuning chassis
     

  5. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 7,556

    Budget36
    Member

    I think it would depend on what type of chassis you want for your build? I/e a 7 second 1/4 mile chassis is not the best route to take for a grocery getter.
    I don’t have a recommendation, other than to narrow into the build you are planning.
     
  6. IIRC, Herb Adams was a proponent of chassis tuning via sway bars and shocks. Somebody did a road-course shootout between him and I think Dick Gulstrand who favored spring changes. Adams narrowly lost, but his car was judged much more pleasant for everyday driving.
     
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  7. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,151

    pitman

    A book I wrote after a 4th build, 3 were Model A's. All from frame construction upward. Drove & handled well. I earned a BSME, later, an MS in Mat Sci, focus upon structures, loads & tuning.
    Use your intuition, then apply 'build' principles. $18 incls shipping.
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/JXpUWyPKPsa3ecfc6
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
    alanp561 and leadsled like this.
  8. hemihotrod66
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 495

    hemihotrod66
    Member

    I had a book called Doorslammers The Chassis Book that was pretty good...
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
    theHIGHLANDER and savannahDan like this.
  9. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 15,611

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Can never go wrong with anything Carroll Smith wrote.
     
  10. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    Thanks for the input, after the recommendations here I ended up picking up 3.....
     
  11. SR100
    Joined: Nov 26, 2013
    Posts: 967

    SR100
    Member

    Which ones?
     
  12. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    Vehicle Dynamics Milliken
    Chassis Engineering Herb Adams
    Engineer to win Carrol Smith
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  13. Mimilan
    Joined: Jun 13, 2019
    Posts: 1,006

    Mimilan
    Member

    "Engineer To Win" by Carrol Smith is the better choice.

    If you really want to overload your brain with formulas
    "Advanced Race Car Suspension Development" by Steve Smith

    Not cheap , but no education is cheap.
    https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Race-Car-Suspension-Development/dp/0936834056

    The best practical education is to crew for a sprint car team
     
  14. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    So I just received, and read through both of these suspension sections. Herb Adams book covers more principals. The Engineer to Win book, has very little in it related to 4 link style suspensions. It seems to cover aspects forgotten, or not covered well in tune to win. Maybe I needed Tune to Win instead???
     
  15. TA DAD
    Joined: Mar 2, 2014
    Posts: 534

    TA DAD
    Member
    from NC

    I have always thought if you learn one thing from a book it was worth the read.
     
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  16. Mimilan
    Joined: Jun 13, 2019
    Posts: 1,006

    Mimilan
    Member

    Absolutely! [quoted for truth]

    The same goes for sifting through information /disinformation on forums and the internet.

    Knowledge is power ,but don't let the "Dunning Kruger Effect" distort what people think they know :D [some people will need to google that]

    upload_2021-12-15_11-6-25.png
     
    Paul likes this.
  17. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,598

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    Herb Adames includes street handling and ride quality in his settings..
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  18. Mimilan
    Joined: Jun 13, 2019
    Posts: 1,006

    Mimilan
    Member

    A lot of those books are just picture books showing "tricks and secrets" but don't really explain the physics and maths [so you can visualize it]


    Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design is a book was written in 1961 by Costin & Phipps
    Mike Costin is the "Cos" in Cosworth [with Keith Duckworth] and the brother of Frank Costin who built Marcos cars and was a race car designer for Lotus.

    The book is obsolete in some areas [pre -monocoque era] but the principles of physics are still the same.
    I have it on pdf that is too large to upload here on the HAMB [41.5 mb]

    pm me with your email address and I will email you a copy.
     
    rod1 likes this.
  19. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    So far I have now managed to read through 4 books.

    I must say that for someone wanting to know why things are happening, or get really deep into it, Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken is my favorite.

    It has an entire section on Chassis setup. Moving the RC up, down, fore, aft, affects the car like this, and this, and this.
     
  20. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 1,994

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think you meant to say " winning sprint car team ", didn't you? ;)
     
  21. Mimilan
    Joined: Jun 13, 2019
    Posts: 1,006

    Mimilan
    Member

    The winning teams usually have a set-up guru that usually won't share their "black art" secrets.

    The historic/vintage scene would be better [these guys would lend a helping hand to their rivals]
     
  22. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 19,178

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Are you building a race vehicle, or a street vehicle?

    I have set up numerous track and autocross vehicles that collect all sorts of trophies.

    Not a one of them would give a pleasing ride on a public road, for even a short ride.
     
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  23. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 11,069

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I was just the engine guy on the winning sprint car team. I watched the chassis guy set the car up, it was interesting to say the least but it was easy to tell who didn't get it right during a race.
     
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  24. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    Purely Street. That is why I like to know the "why's".

    I picked up the books to be able to understand what affects the vehicle and how. All of these guys buy and install racing parts, and don't have a clue how they affect the handling, and as to your point make a worse ride for a daily driver by bolting them on.
     
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  25. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    What's sad is this is starting to creep into hot rodding as well.

    People making parts, selling them, putting huge markups on them, when you can go to the parts store and find something that works just as well.

    It is OT here, but the new Crown Vic swap is a great example.

    Guys pressing a bushing out rotating it 30 degrees, sticking it back in and then selling it for 3 times what the bushing costs.

    I don't have an issue with guys making money, but the same guy is unwilling to provide you a part number to help you out. But willing to sell you his bushings...
     
  26. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,240

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Don't confuse someone who has done his homework in order to market a better mouse trap at a profit with your buddy who makes his living in a different line of profitable work and will help you work on your car for free. Apples and oranges.

    If it weren't for the profit motive we would have far less goods to choose from.

    Ray
     
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  27. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,302

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    Doorslammers by Dave Morgan. Now if you're going to approach that book as a how-to for building a drag chassis you'll miss most of it. Read EVERYTHING in that book. Every sidebar, picture caption, diagram, ALL OF IT. He covers the leverage and forces involved, shock valving, shock bumpers (yup, they play too), spring rates, material selection, even some specs on welding wire. Somebody kept mine and disappeared. But that book is a theoretical bounty if that's what you seek. Yes, the main focus is the construction of drag chassis but getting there applies across the board. You won't be disappointed.

    2nd choice, again if theorum is what you seek (not only what but why) try to find a GM Performance Racing Handbook from the mid 70s. Lots of suspension talk in those too. How good are both of these? Combined with a service manual I was able to tune the suspension on a Ski-Doo snowmobiile with info found in the Morgan book. I dialed in the modified stock front suspension in my racer with both books. If you can get a peek at either you'll see what I mean. No, I have neither to sell. Good luck...
     
  28. Mimilan
    Joined: Jun 13, 2019
    Posts: 1,006

    Mimilan
    Member

    This is true!

    The late Bruce McLaren once said "the real cost of racing isn't from the parts you use, But the parts you throw away"
    This doesn't just apply to them wearing out, but also from Testing , Research and Development.

    So knowledge is power. Also $$$.
    So if you don't know what you're doing ,be prepared to open your wallet.

    If you "machine gun" enough hotrod parts at a car, you could get an improvement

    The problem with profit, is it can override integrity. 90% of all vendors seem to think that the answer to all your worldly problems involves buying something off their shelves.

    This is the dangerous arena with disc brake conversion kits etc.
    Half the phone/counter jockeys don't even know the mathematics involved.

    @tlmartin84 Travis [and everybody else]
    Here is a good bit of reading.
    It is a presentation from Lotus/Ford England to a Ford engineering conference [Dearborn] about the Lotus Cortina Racing Programme [written in early 1963]

    http://www.lotuscortinainfo.com/?page_id=2704

    It is engineering knowledge that made these cars fast [not finned rocker covers and anodized fittings]
     
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  29. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    You missed my point...

    What I am getting at is guys turning forums, facebook groups into their sales arena.

    People come here for help, help them and pass the hobby on.

    Don't answer their questions with, here buy my part and it solves all the worlds problems. Either answer their questions or move on. If your parts are good enough, other people will send you to them.

    Everyone and their brother owns a plasma table and welder now. They are making parts without any knowledge behind them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
    Mimilan likes this.
  30. tlmartin84
    Joined: Jul 28, 2011
    Posts: 923

    tlmartin84
    Member
    from WV

    The other thing that rubs me raw in regards to this subject is the fact is a lot of these guys aren't open about their products and what you are getting.

    For instance, I call a guy and order a set of shocks and springs. He asks me what the application, I tell him and he sends me the shocks and springs for my setup....

    So I need a new shock, guy won't tell me what he sold me, and conveniently peeled off the manufacturers stickers.

    Only choice is to go back through him.

    I just think stuff like that is shady. To someone who has an open wallet and who knows nothing and just wants to bolt parts on...fine. People doing that are just taking advantage of people.
     

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