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W-Head Freaks and Gurus Need 348/409 Stroker Help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Rustahaulic, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. Has anyone built a bowtie 348/409 stroker motor using a 454 crank and rods?...I've decided I am doin one this hybrids for a new project and am looking for some pointers...I know there are a few tricks to putting such a motor together, so since I've never done one of these before, any help would be appreciated.

    I have a couple options of 409 blocks to use, car and tall deck truck motor both, but my ultimate goal is to end up with a low compression, forged piston (probably mahale teflon coated), 8-1 compression, steel crank, hi perf rods, topped with a new set of edelbrock aluminum 220 cc 2.19"/1.72" ss valves, and BDS intake and a 8-71 Deaton or similar magnisium blower and probably 2, 5-600 cfm carbs...
     
  2. Tindall
    Joined: Jun 7, 2007
    Posts: 399

    Tindall
    Member

  3. Tindall
    Joined: Jun 7, 2007
    Posts: 399

    Tindall
    Member

  4. Chevydeuce
    Joined: Apr 20, 2006
    Posts: 136

    Chevydeuce
    Member

    There ain´t no tall deck truck w engines.
    Difference between truck and performance 409 block is that the truck block has notches in the bore.
    348-409 is a very helpful forum with tons of useful information!!
     
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  5. Brad54
    Joined: Apr 15, 2004
    Posts: 6,008

    Brad54
    Member
    from Atl Ga

    Well, you asked here, so I'll tell you what I can. (I've never been to 348-409.com, but I do hand around Lamar Walden's shop a good bit, and he's the best in the country for these. I've also done a ton of research on my own).

    For a low-compression blower motor, go with the truck block. As stated, they have the same deck height, but the trucks had a big notch taken out of the deck by the exhaust valve. That notch does unshroud the exhaust valve, but it kills compression for a normally aspirated engine. For a blower application, the truck block is preferred.

    Stroker crank: I'm also putting a 454 crank in mine, along with long Lunati BBC billet rods and Lamar's forged pistons. He has pistons with the pin height for standard and long BBC rod length.

    The hole in the timing chain cover for the crank snout to go through is the same size as a small block Chevy. That means you'll either need to have your crank snout turned down, or go with one of Lamar's billet aluminum timing chain covers. Someone else may make one with the right sized seal, but I don't know. Bead blast the aluminum if you don't like it (That's what I'm going to do). Lamar's cover has a removable face on it, too, making cam changed easier.
    With the blower, I'd recommend going with the larger diameter snout. You'd hate to twist off the snout.

    Lamar has a particular billet steel balancer he uses. I prefer The Rattler by TCI. I've done a lot of research on the Rattler, and to me it's the perfect damper, particularly for strokers, as it actively works at canceling out harmonics through the ENTIRE rpm range for any combination, not tuned to work at one particular, narrow window as with most others.

    Main caps: You MUST use billet 4-bolt main caps. A lot of guys (including other 409 specialists) will say you can just turn the main journals down and stick with the stock 2-bolt caps. Problem is, to turn them down, you need to turn the crank .125 to make it fit. Now, if you were building a 454, 427, 396 or even a 350 or 327, what would you do with a crank that needed to be turned .125 to clean up? You'd throw it away. .020/.020 for main and rod journals being turned is the max most people will go, and with good reason.
    Buy Pro-Gram billet steel 4-bolt mains and have the engine align-bored. At the cost of building a regular 409, the extra $500-$600 total for 4-bolt mains is a drop in the bucket. Add a stroker kit and a BLOWER, and skimping there is downright stupid.
    Splayed caps won't work on the '09 block, so get regular up-and-down style.
    ARP makes main studs for them, as well as head studs. Problem with the head studs is that they don't all go straight in--some are angled, so the studs have to be installed after the head is in place. For a blower motor, I'd use them.
    They make reproduction stock oil pans, and originals go for stupid money. For almost the same money you can buy a Stef's aluminum pan with a crank scraper and trap door. It's almost a shame to hide it under the car--it's a beautiful piece.

    That about covers the bottom end. Don't know who you're using for a Cam...I've got a COMP solid roller, ordered it thru Lamar, but he won't divulge the specs. I do know that he has to make a custom tie-bar for the roller lifters.

    I'm also going with his roller rockers. The stock '09 rockers have the small diameter SBC-sized rocker studs. There are applications for 409 roller rockers out there, but most or all of them employ 1.6 rockers, while the stock 409 stamped steel rockers are 1.7 (or 1.75...I don't remember right now). Either way, you'll be losing some rocker ratio, and your cam specs need to reflect that.

    The distributor is unique to 409s. MSD makes one for them, and Lamar sells an adapter sleeve that allows any SBC/BBC distributor to drop in.

    Edelbrock advertises an aluminum water pump for them, for about half the price of the one Lamar sells. E'brock's is based on the factory Z-11 aluminum water pump, and the factory passenger car pump. Lamars is based on the truck water pump housing, which uses a bigger bearing and much beefier bearing area on the casting. I've seen one Z-11 water pump in my life (other than the NOS one Lamar has), and the housing was broken at the bearing. I saw this 15 years ago or more, in Ohio, and mentioned it to Lamar, and he told me that's why he prefers the iron truck pumps, and beefed up his aluminum pump for racers. Nothing at all against Edelbrock--damn glad they're offering stuff for the 409. For a hot rod, their pump will be perfect. For a race car or high-horsepower pounder, I'd go with the iron truck pump or Lamar's aluminum pump.

    Lamar also has developed a medium-riser tunnel ram, with removable top plate. He's got patterns for blower adapters that bolt up, so you have that option now too.

    -Brad
     
  6. Thirdyfivepickup
    Joined: Nov 5, 2002
    Posts: 6,088

    Thirdyfivepickup
    Member

    Eagle has a crank that drops in.

    We got a couple of sets of the Edelbrock heads in a couple of weeks ago and sold them before they were off the pallet. I have 4 more sets coming and they have been backordered. So it looks like they are hot right now.

    I did get a chance to look at them. Look real nice. I'll probably buy them for my own 409 project if I ever get the bills caught up.

    I think 348-409.com has a post going on a low compression truck block stroker if I heard right.
     
  7. I used Isky for the cam, with solid lifters and Crane roller rockers. Lamar's stuff is top shelf with prices to match. Are you wanting a race motor?
     
  8. We can make the pistons hear @ CP Pistons (949)567-9000. One
    of our customers, AES (847)956-1244 Does a fair amount of these
    Ric.
     
  9. panic
    Joined: Jan 3, 2004
    Posts: 1,450

    panic

    "what would you do with a crank that needed to be turned .125 to clean up? You'd throw it away."

    Why?
     
  10. 65 impala
    Joined: Jan 12, 2007
    Posts: 1,086

    65 impala
    Member

    built a 409 stroker using 427 crank and rods didnt wanna turn the snout down so we modified 409 timing cover to accept bb chev crank snout stronger that way we used bb chev billet main girdle we had to modify it and weld ears on the front of the pan both sides to clear it the motor is all roller ross 8 to 1 pistons and 671 with 2 850 double pumpers
     

    Attached Files:


  11. you ever findja a block mikey?????
     
  12. Thirdyfivepickup
    Joined: Nov 5, 2002
    Posts: 6,088

    Thirdyfivepickup
    Member


    no, I found out my sperm work perfectly fine... I'm expecting my princess the middle of June! :)

    No car stuff for me... not for a while.

    Mikey
     
  13. sixpac
    Joined: Dec 15, 2002
    Posts: 553

    sixpac
    Member
    from Courtenay

    You can buy stroker kits for the 409 and the 348. I believe it is cheaper to buy a kit than it is to pay for machineing and so on. And with the kit you can get pistons and rods. Show Cars. sells the kits on ebay. You can put a 409 crank and rods in a 348 and then get new pistons to fit. Ross makes them. I have been playing with my 348 for 10 yrs and I like that 348/409.com site is in my opinion the best there is they got it all covered.
    Good luck John
     
  14. Thanks for all the info...I'm gonna have to regroup and save a littlemore coin before I can pull this off but its good to know...

    **Per the new Edelbrock W-Heads, after doing some research most of them have had terminal failure and are cracking between the valves, including when hotrod TV was shooting a clip on them while on the DYNO(bet that one doesn't make it to TV), anyway the gen II versions are supposed to be on the way in a few weeks...and they should be exchanging them for the first gen ones...kinda sucks for 2200.00 a set!
     
  15. 65 impala
    Joined: Jan 12, 2007
    Posts: 1,086

    65 impala
    Member

    check out bob walla racing he makes alum heads he is working on making alum blocks right now :D
     
  16. Jay Greenlaw
    Joined: Nov 26, 2009
    Posts: 5

    Jay Greenlaw
    Member

    I realize i am a little late on this post, but as an old 409er i thought some of my experience might help. i used a 409/348 timing cover and cut the center out of a big block chevy cover and machined up sleeve to index the big block and 409/348 cover. ten minutes with the tig welder solves the problem of a big block crank i a 409 block.also by now someon probably makes lifter alignment bars for 409 roller cams. i used Isky guide bars for a chrysler slightly modified them to fit the 409. the rocker ratio for 409 1.75, also you can use splayed caps on a 409 block i did and it works the outer bolts slightly touch the oil gallery which can be sleeved or if its for racing you can use a little sealer. it worked for me. another thing that can save some money is that a 440 mopar intake and a 409 chevy have almost the same port spacing. a 440 manifold is much wider. i used a direct connection 2x4 tunnel ram,cut off the existing flanges, machined up some plates to match the ports and a valley cover and welded it up and trued the plates and ended up with a nice tunnel ram on my 452 ci. 409. (427 chevy crank). With major mods (lots of welding and epoxy etc) to the 425 HP heads (flowed 357cfm) the engine made 604hp
    with 10 to 1 ross pistons and a Relatively mild Isky roller cam on a conservative dyno. if you are building a 409 and i can help you can e-mail me at PS there is a picture of the engine in my album.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
  17. Candy-Man
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 1,704

    Candy-Man
    Member

    Bob Walla will not be back in his shop and is not available until Feb '2010 according to an email I received from his wife.

    I have been driving and beating up on a blown 409 stroked to 474 for 11 years now, with no issues after the first two months.

    You will not hammer out the 2 bolt mains if you are not drag racing, you will not break the snout of the 454 crank off if you turn it down to fit the 409 timing chain cover.

    As I said, I have beat mine up for 11 years and it still runs perfect, my daily driver.

    I use an ATI balancer, with some balance work to the crank. By the way I am using 'H' beam connecting rods, truck block, 400 HP iron heads, roller rockers, Isky cam, stainless valves, 871 DBS blower, ROSS pistons hooked up to a 4 speed. Yes I have three pedals on the floor !

    If you need any questions answered on performance, etc. drop me an email...

    You will have a blast with no real issues..... Go for it, I did after I read the original article which came out in Hot Rod Magazine quoting Curt Harvey (Mr. 409).
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2009
  18. BSL409
    Joined: Aug 28, 2011
    Posts: 515

    BSL409
    Member



    would of liked to see your intake on this
     

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