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Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Porky's Girl
    Joined: Sep 23, 2016
    Posts: 4

    Porky's Girl

    Thanks, rooman, for the info. As I've said, I appreciate any input.
     
  2. flatheadtommy
    Joined: Oct 21, 2013
    Posts: 1,007

    flatheadtommy
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    The great Jimmy Bryan IMG_0337.JPG
     
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  3. flatheadtommy
    Joined: Oct 21, 2013
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    flatheadtommy
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    New England great and my personal favorite Joe Sostilio IMG_0063.JPG IMG_0064.jpg
     
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  4. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

    Unknown driver in Karl Orr's #4 at Pomona circa 1951. 10-3-a.JPG
     
  5. 32STUPRES
    Joined: Nov 9, 2008
    Posts: 360

    32STUPRES
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    Hey Mike Guffey thanks so much for the "tour" of your stuff. Jim Barron and I really enjoyed the visit! Joe K
     
  6. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

  7. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

    Pat Flaherty, Denny Moore and A.J. Watson look to be pondering the situation at Indy 56. Capture indy 56.JPG
     
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  8. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,174

    Jim Nise
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    Looks like Jack Turner sitting on pit wall over Watson' is shoulder.
     
  9. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

  10. 29AVEE8
    Joined: Jun 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,384

    29AVEE8
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    Jud at Sacramento 1965 trailing Big AL and Bobby with Foyt behind.
    Sacramento 1965.jpg
     
  11. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,032

    Speedwrench
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    Was it Jud or Elmer George who came up with the infamous quip about the Speedway - " Ain't nothin wrong with this joint a foot of dirt wouldn't cure" ?
     
  12. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,174

    Jim Nise
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    I believe itwasJud. Remember Elmer was married to Hulman's daughter.
     
  13. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,032

    Speedwrench
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    I'm aware of the relationship of Elmer to Tony. But, depending on who you believe around Indy, Elmer used to get a few jabs in on occasion just to get under Tony's skin.
     
  14. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

  15. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 961

    indyrjc
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    from Indiana

    When you see photos like these showing the skinny tires in use at the time it's hard not to compare the cars of 1960 to those of today. And you also notice that there always seems to be race track left in the old photos and the track doesn't look like shiny black asphalt as it always does today.

    What's really amazing is that today's Silver Crown cars on the mile dirt tracks have super wide sticky tires and probably almost twice the horsepower of the old Championship cars but aren't really all that much faster. Off the top of my head I'll bet the cars of today are maybe only 3 seconds a lap faster than those like Bettenhausen is driving in Rootie's photos.

    Considering all of the modern dirt track technology in play it really doesn't seem like all that big of an improvement over what was considered fast 55+ years ago.
     
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  16. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,130

    28dreyer
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    from Minnesota

    I've felt that many of the dirt tracks of today and some of the cars that are running them are more like on a paved track and some of the paved tracks are being run like dirt.
     
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  17. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
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    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

    In 1960 a 400 h.p. champ car didn't need much more than a 8 inch tire to get hooked up. In 2016 a 800 h.p. Silver Crown needs a 16 inch tire to hook up. Theoretically should much faster but dirt is a great equalizer and it kinda becomes a "terminal velocity" deal.
     
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  18. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 779

    Michael Ferner
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    Actually, it's more like six seconds a lap, and you have to consider that it's a bigger leap from 36" to 30" (20 %) than from, say, 50" to 44" (less than 14 % increase in speed). But I agree, it's not a lot, when most other disciplines have nearly doubled speeds over the last 50 years. It's obvious that, apart from the aerodynamic progress (wings easily add about another 20 % to the speed), sticking to the front-engined layout (and all the weight disadvantages that go along with it) is responsible for this lack of improvement.
     
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  19. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
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    jimmy six
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    Old compared to new......old just "looked" better doing it.
     
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  20. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,032

    Speedwrench
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    Thank you Mr. Ferner. This confirms what I had guessed based on empirical observation, but I'd have thought the decrease would have been more in the ten to eleven second range.

    I think that aerodynamics may be the major influence in the lack of more significant lap time reduction. The bodies are a little slicker now but the tires have more frontal area which negates this difference. I was shown some numbers by an aero engineer at Ford that came from a legitimate wind tunnel that came from tests run on a "northeast" dirt modified, which is not all that dissimilar to a present day champ dirt car aerodynamically, and to say that the car had the aerodynamics of a concrete block is something of an understatement. Most of the resistance came from the front tires. I think the numbers might have been worse if the modified had as much rear tire exposed as a champ car does.

    I think wings are a non-starter in this case since Silver Crown cars are not allowed to use them. As a comparison, it would be interesting at see how quick a state of the art World Of Outlaws car could get around a mile in this day and age if they were brave enough to run a mile again.
     
  21. deucemac
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,057

    deucemac
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    Well in the case of sprint cars and dirt, new is not necessarily better. I remember back in the 70's in CRA . There was a new fangled sprinter owner by Greg Piper. Rear engine and independent suspension all around. Terrible on dirt because of the low center of gravity and no weight transfer to plant the tires on a slide through a corner. But, it drove by everyone when it got on pavement. I really don't mind that we haven't doubled a sprinter speed because there is still nothing like SLIDING SIDEWAYS at 130 miles an hour on dirt. It is just too bad we can't see them wrestling the wheel as before.
     
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  22. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,278

    drtrcrV-8
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    When they last ran Sacramento at Cal Expo they ran the winged 410" Sprint Cars (same as run with WOO, but not a WOO sanctioned event) as a "filler" event : If you didn't qualify 24.5 or better, you'd better put it on the trailer ( QT was about 23.8 or 23.9 as I remember) : the Champ (Silver Crown)cars were running high 30's/ low 31's!! Look it up!
     
  23. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,032

    Speedwrench
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    While on the subject of Silver Crown cars and of a more historical slant, I've wondered why no one ever put Jerry Blundy in an SC car. He was so good on the miles in IMCA and the open comp shows that it always seemed like a natural thing to do. And the advent of SC was the beginning of USAC easing their licencing requirements so it would not have been an inconvenience to run SC and still be able to maintain his IMCA and open comp schedule.

    There may not be an answer but I've often wondered.
     
  24. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 961

    indyrjc
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    from Indiana

    That sounds about right.

    In the case of the Indiana State Fairgrounds the current track record is (I believe) 31.379 seconds/114.726 MPH set by Johnny Parsons, Jr. in 1995. For the Rootie photo year of 1960 Rodger Ward was on the pole in the Hoosier Hundred at 35.429 seconds/101.609 MPH. So the difference in time between now and then is approximately 4 seconds a lap on the same track.

    It almost makes me wonder if slightly narrower tires would make today's cars faster due to all of the aerodynamic drag that the wider tires induce. Maybe that's where a lot of that extra horsepower gets used up. Or maybe, as Rootie stated, dirt is just the great equalizer.

    And like everyone else I'm just glad that there are at least a few mile dirt tracks still running where we can directly compare current cars to those of the past.
     
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  25. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,174

    Jim Nise
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    As someone that saw Langhorne, Springfield and Indy fairgrounds from 1958 to 1964, there are a number of things tat changed making some of this the apple-orange comparison.

    Langhorne had a 1lap record of 115 in the 1950's. Langhorne was unique in that the track wasn't watered, but oiled. So it didn't dry out for the later qualifiers.

    Springfield and Indy were notorious for drying out. If you weren't in the first 8 to qualify, you wouldn't be up front. And the later you were in the draw you probably wouldn't make the field.

    Speed was always a buzz, but competitive racing was what you wanted in the race.

    Just my 2 cents
     
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  26. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,056

    rooman
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    In 1998 Sammy Swindell set the then record for a mile at the Illinois State Fair at 24.717. (145.637).

    Roo
     
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  27. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

    10-10-a-ward-1960.JPG 10-10-b-ward -1961.JPG 10-10-c-ward-62.JPG 10-10-d-ward-2.JPG
    Rodger Ward 1960/61/62.​
     
  28. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,105

    Rootie Kazoootie
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    from Colorado

    George Robson, in the Duray #28, passes the Lou Webb wreck at Syracuse 1940. 10-11-robson-webb.JPG
     
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  29. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 961

    indyrjc
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    from Indiana

    Judging from the way the crowd is watching Robson the fatal Webb crash was already out of their minds. The crash happened early in the race and typically for the day the wrecked car was apparently just left on the track since it wasn't in the way of the racing line. If there was a caution flag thrown (and there might not have been) all the other cars had to do was just slow down in the area while the driver was being removed.

    And look how close all of the spectators are to the track while pressing up against just a railing. Many tracks were like this but Syracuse was one of the worst going back to the early days of racing there. Years later Chuck Stevenson went over the wall there and ended up with a small boy on his lap in the cockpit. The boy reportedly got up and started crying before running away.
     
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