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Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    Well, whatever it is it is an interesting car, definitely a stretched midget or built with stretched midget proportions.

    Anderson and the Hoosier 100 were great events with a healthy vintage car count. I had never been to Anderson and it is now my favorite track to drive on. Hoosier 100 had a great display of vintage cars but track time was very limited. Even with the limited track time it is still an honor to be able a car at the historic 1 mile.

    The vintage 500 display Thurs morning at the Indy Speedway was just spectacular. A great collection of Speedway cars from the 20's up to the 80's. Hearing them all start up for warm ups was quite a treat.
     
    Black vette 59 likes this.
  2. racer chaser
    Joined: Dec 25, 2012
    Posts: 143

    racer chaser
    Member
    from indiana

    Mike, FYI Champ Car Stats report shows the 1951 San Jose 100 Troy Ruttman qualified 15th and finished 15th in the #79 Hart Fullerton Kurtis 4000 Offy super charged.
     
  3. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 785

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Yes, amazingly they get it right some times.
     
  4. ...don't know if anyone can help....but does anyone make reproduction AAA racecar dash plaques ?....need one for my ''Miss Leader Card'' sprint car.....thought it would be cool... DSC_0125.jpg
     
  5. racer chaser
    Joined: Dec 25, 2012
    Posts: 143

    racer chaser
    Member
    from indiana

    Rootie...Another great photo from 1951..Would you happen to have one of my boyhood hero Tony Bettenhausen in the #99????
     
  6. slobitz
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 245

    slobitz
    Member
    from drums, pa

    #3.jpg #3.jpg Here is what a real Hillegass Miracle power sprint looks like
     
  7. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Here's a few: 6-5-a.JPG 6-5-b.JPG 6-5-c.JPG 6-5-d.JPG
     
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  8. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 785

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    You sure that's a Hillegass, Stan? To me it looks like Deb having fitted some Hillegass body parts to his old rail frame chassis. Never saw a Hillegass with radius rods like that.
     
  9. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,167

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Well how interesting. The 99 Belanger car I believe was the Meyer Drake test bed for a supercharged 110 Offy before being refitted with the N/A Bigger Offy. While this car has been called a stretched midget, I'm led to believe it was not but rather a Kurtis built special not one of his normal series.

    Additionally I find that Mike Caruso also had S/C 110 Offy's. Perhaps there were some small significant number of them being developed.

    My post above that started this latest flurry of postings, originally (before editing) suggested the #5 Miracle Power car seen at Anderson and Indianapolis two weeks ago, was a Herb Porter stretched midget that ran the S/C 110 as well. Perhaps Porter was involved in some or all of these cars.

    Does anybody have knowledge or NSSN or Speed Age resources to expand on this subject? I think the era here is late '40's/early '50's.
     
  10. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    I read somewhere, so you know how that goes, that the Belanger Kurtis car was 1 of 2 special builds Kurtis did that used a Midget nose, hood and tail with 8 inches added to the front of the tail and a longer separate cowl added. It also used the same width as the midget frame but was not really a stretched midget as it was built this way from the beginning. I love the torsion bars hanging out side the body.
     
  11. racer chaser
    Joined: Dec 25, 2012
    Posts: 143

    racer chaser
    Member
    from indiana

  12. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,167

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    I'm thinking I also saw reference to Frank Merkler also running a S/C 110.

    Anybody?
     
  13. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 972

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Rootie, these are great photos. Once again, thanks for posting.

    But they also bring up questions about just what car is in the photos.

    For years the 1951 Wallard 500 winner was listed as a Kurtis that had started life with a supercharged midget engine. But that may not be the case at all.

    According to Lujie Lesovsky the original Kurtis was crashed by Bettenhausen at Sacramento toward the end of 1950. The car went through a guardrail and into a tree killing one spectator and injuring several others. The car got repaired enough to finish the season but the decision was made at the same time to build a new car based on the original but set up this time for the larger and heavier 270 engine. Lujie finished this car in early 1951 and this was the car with which Wallard won the 500 although the car was always listed as a Kurtis instead of a Lesovsky. At the time Lesovsky didn't think much about it.

    However, in later years Lesovsky told quite a few people about what apparently really happened. I've spoken to people who knew Lujie and got the account from him directly. Even the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum must know there is some truth to the story because starting in very recent years the placard in front of the displayed Wallard car now lists the car as a Kurtis-Lesovsky.

    This story reminds me of all the years that Foyt's 1961 winning roadster was called a Watson by the museum before they finally realized that Floyd Trevis was the actual builder. Again, at the time Trevis didn't care one way or the other but it became more important to him in later years.

    I'm repeating this story from verbal accounts from people that knew Lujie. I'd be interested in finding out what some of the resident experts here (like Rootie and Michael Ferner or anyone else for that matter) know about the lineage of both of the Belanger cars of this period.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  14. slobitz
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 245

    slobitz
    Member
    from drums, pa

    Rootie, its got a legitimate Hillegass Dash tag built in 1953 when Deb won over fifty features. Hillegas built 3 of these with split radius rods. Lynn Paxton has one of the other ones. It is the pink Charlie Sacks sprinter. As you know I have the Hillegass stuff including pensil drawings and Patterns for allof the beacketry. you should make it to my place some time , Icould show you some of my stuff. I`m a cheap bastard and would not have spent a small fortune on this pile.
    I could also give you a rundown on the Hubble Ranger in the background, Its in our museum at EMMR.
     
  15. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 785

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Thanks, Stan (I'm not Rootie but it was me who posted the query ;)
    You're right, the Sacks car has the exact same radius rod arrangement, I never noticed. I have seen period reports refering to Snyder's car specifically as "built by himself", hence my scepticism. I plead guilty to being the one who never stops asking questions.

    Oh, and I take you up on the Hubble Ranger! Leon raced it only for a couple of years, where did it go/come from?
     
  16. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    This may be of some interest:
     

    Attached Files:

  17. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 972

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Thanks for the information, Rootie. After reading that article I can now see where the basis of my verbal story came from. And if you think about it the car probably was more a Lesovsky than a Kurtis after the build/rebuild.

    One of the key points in the story was the fact that Lujie mounted the 270 Offy rigidly in the frame instead of using the floating front trunion mounting that had been standard since the early Miller/Offy rail frame days. With a smart setup man like Salih and great drivers like Wallard and Bettenhausen that single fact might account for much of the car's success in 1951. The floating mount was used well into the 1960s on the roadsters and it makes you wonder why when you consider that the improved tires of the period were starting to really put a premium on suspension design. Having the frame flex around your engine certainly didn't make for consistent handling.

    Nobody wanted to admit it at the time but the truth is that tube frames in the roadsters actually flexed a lot. I've talked to drivers of original roadsters in some of today's vintage meets and they confirm this. On a high banked track they can apparently feel the seat flex under them on its' frame mounting when you make the transistion from the banking back down to the flatter slow down lane.

    Lesovsky may have been years ahead of his time when he rebuilt the Belanger car.
     
  18. Bob Cicconi
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 107

    Bob Cicconi
    Member

    I've race the banks quite a bit in midgets, sprints, and dirt cars (at Salem) and I never felt anything flex that I could identify immediately. A high banked track will cause less roll than a track with less banking. The banks tend to push the car down more. A softer spring rate will more likely cause you to bottom out rather than roll a lot. I do agree that a chassis flexes, and you CAN feel that a car is rolling a lot in certain situations, but it's hard to tell WHY it's rolling (whether due to chassis flex or springs/torsion bars are too soft, panhard rod height incorrect, etc). I'm very skeptical that someone can feel their seat flex on its frame mounting. If I felt something like that I wouldn't drive the car.
     
  19. mac miller
    Joined: Jan 13, 2007
    Posts: 522

    mac miller
    Member
    from INDY

    70s and 80s cars, with full space frames and roll cages were considerably stiffer than the 50s and 60s twin tube, non cage cars.
    When restoring vintage open wheel cars, one of the most common conditions is wallowed out dzus mounting holes and stress cracks in the bodywork. Also common, are worn seat mounting holes.
    Much of this is due to chassis flex.

    mac miller in INDY
     
  20. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,642

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I just love studying these old photos for hints on how it was done. That high mount on the Miracle Power car rear radius rod must have given it hella bite off the corners. And the six cylinder car in the background with the high exhaust ports - was that a Ranger? Were Rangers competitive with the Offys?

    So many questions...

    [edit 10:04] I guess Stan's preceeding post answered my question about the Ranger car. I would still like to know how the Rangers fared against the Offys - was one better than the other on short tracks/long tracks? I know at least one Ranger was a natioinal champ. Sombody enlighten me please.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
    Dean Lowe likes this.
  21. Bob Cicconi
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 107

    Bob Cicconi
    Member

    Mac: You're 100% right. I've seen those same conditions on cars that I've driven and that others have driven. My only question was whether someone can actually feel the chassis flexing and the seat moving. An interesting parallel to your observation concerning the rail-type chassis flex is the way convertible autos flex in a very similar fashion. There are stiffening kits for the shock towers and undersides available for Porsche convertibles as they flex a lot because there's no triangulation on the upper body that a solid roof, for example, provides.
     
  22. indybigjohn
    Joined: May 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,713

    indybigjohn
    Member Emeritus

    Bob, your point on convertibles is well taken. Remember the replica Oldsmobile 500 pace car we had at IRP? It flexed so bad USAC didn't want to use it. Turned out nearly all of those replicas that year were coupes that simply had to top cut off.
     
  23. Bob Cicconi
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 107

    Bob Cicconi
    Member

    Damn! I didn't know that.
     
  24. slobitz
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 245

    slobitz
    Member
    from drums, pa

    I will post in a new post
     
  25. slobitz
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 245

    slobitz
    Member
    from drums, pa

    TomBarnes14.jpg c scroggins 12.jpg
    I have a purpose built Kurtis sprint Chassis #X1
    it was built by Johnny Parson and Tum Barnes. Ran in Calif. until it crashed at phoenix in 63. Colby Scroggin won the CRA championship in 62. Kurtis nose, tail and hood with a separet cowl.
     
  26. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    Here is a question, How did teams blow out all the fuel lines, barrel valve, fuel pump etc on the road before everyone had generators and air compressors?
     
  27. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 972

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Neil, I don't think most teams cleaned out much of anything when they were on the road years ago. I'm sure they drained their tanks and cleaned out their injectors when they got a chance but for the most part I have to think they just kept racing.

    From what I've been told they didn't run straight methanol. The preferred blend seemed to include small percentages of both Baker's AA castor oil and acetone added to the fuel. The acetone cut down on the propensity of the methanol to attract water and the castor help lubricate everything while possibly cutting down on corrosion.

    I'm not saying racers never cleaned their injection systems. But I don't think they did it after every race either. Hopefully, someone here knows for sure just what they did do.
     
  28. ROADSTER1927
    Joined: Feb 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,906

    ROADSTER1927
    Member

    Never had to clean mine on my modified, we ran 3 or 4 nights a week! Gary
     
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  29. Blacki-Suede
    Joined: May 19, 2008
    Posts: 202

    Blacki-Suede
    Member

    Question. Restoring 1965 Edmunds midget (CBM7). Does anyone know when braided SST flexible brake lines were first used on open wheel cars? The car I have last ran in '78 and had rubber brake lines. Want to be somewhat period correct but would prefere to run SST.

    Stan????

    Thanks in advance
    Blacki-Suede
     
  30. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,642

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I am pretty sure stainless lines had come into use on automotive applications before 1978. I recently replaced the original line on my 1978 Logghe Stamping altered drag car with a stainless line.
     

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