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Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    The Elder car was the 72 USAC champ, so it must have been a fairly early cage car. The cage looks to be of a later 70s design, to me, and may have been recaged/rebuilt along the line (?) This is a G/K midget from the late 70s and the cage is very similar to the Elder car. I see that Roy C. has been following this thread, maybe he will chime in with some insight, as I recall, he mentioned he once worked for G/K and he may know more (?)
     

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  2. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    I thought the elder car was an Edmunds. The cage has the same shape as an Edmunds car. The midget in Rootie Kazootie's post also has an Edmunds style cage. Either way the Elder car is the second best looking caged sprint car there is.(Only My opinion)

    1. Foyts #11
    2. Elder Car
    3. Dobbins/Stapp/Ponco Carter #6 car
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2008
  3. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    You could be right, I'm certainly not a expert by any means. OW magazine states that the Elder car is a G/K car and the midget was being displayed by the orginal owner who said it was a G/K car also. (?) Other than that (and in my best Sgt. Schultz voice) "I know nothiiing" :D
     
  4. Jerracer
    Joined: Feb 16, 2008
    Posts: 124

    Jerracer
    Member

    Stapp's cages looked a lot like that of the Elder 55.
     
  5. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    It probably is a Grant King. All my knowledge comes from collecting old books and listening to lots of stories growing up. This was all going on while I was being born. I am an avid early sprint/midget history student.

    That is me sitting in the car in my avatar.
     
  6. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    About the same here, being far away from the epicenter of all things open wheel, I don't have a lot of inside information or first hand knowledge. And, my bad :eek:, I had the dates wrong on the Elder car, here's the text that went along with the OW mag. pics. And even that could be mis-information as far as I know.
     

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  7. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I would have to include Gary Bs. offset rig on that list. Radical and way ahead of its time no doubt, but one badass looking machine none the less.
     

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  8. Rootie, you and I are a couple of young turks on this deal. I have been impressed with your knowledge and have learned a lot from this thread which you have been a big part of. I'm out in the boonies on most of this stuff.


    One note- There is a habit of "blanket branding" amongst a lot of fans out there. At times, people like that REALLY want to know the history can get confusing stories from out there. I.E.- Any tube framed, upright dirt supermodified ia an Edmunds to a lot of people, even though he only built around 35(which came with a tag on the dash). Cageless post war midgets are called a Kurtis, yet we all know there were many other builders. A coupe bodied NE modified without fenders is called a "Tobias" even though there were many avenues to get through. So it only goes that it is easy to call all 70's sprinters a Grant King................

    Edmunds got the cover of Hot Rod in '66, then a model was put out later, then a lot of supermodifieds across the country were using his bodies or in most cases copies.

    Kurtis was mostly famous from Indy and the midget circles, also had a model done after the midgets they were famous for.

    Tobias had a line of models done after his cars.

    Grant King also had a line of models done after his cars too.

    That's where I see the connection since most people don't really worry about it. Around here, a guy might say he has a Nance for sale and yet it is usually a copy. Peoples responses get conditioned over time and it spreads causing us a lot of confusion. Sad part is, after being WRONG so many times, these days I am more reluctant to say anything, although you haven't seen it here.
     


  9. Garys offset is perfect from every angle I've seen only in pictures. Wonder if it is still around out there?
     

  10. I was raised on Open Wheel too. It was my second, and sometimes first Bible. The only magazines I keep from all those years after buying hundreds of different magazines are the Open Wheels and OLD SCR. I never liked throwing away an Open Wheel.
     
  11. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    It got a lot of attention for a short while, and then kinda dropped out of sight, although I think I remember seeing a pic of it with a conventional upright engine.
     
  12. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Don't know if this is the exact same car as the offset, or another similar car, but here's a pic of a conventional straight up version.
     

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  13. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    Brian 26.. Funny you mention the "blanket branding deal" Richcraft mike and I had that same discusion this past weekend.

    To a non hot rodder EVERY old car in a field is a 32 ford, and every old midget is a Kurtis.

    Where our discusion was centered was how every old front engine dragster is a Don Long or Loghe (spl)

    Mike mentioned the best reason for this..
    Whenever anyone has ANY old race car, like an old midget or dragster, they Google "old midget" and the first ones that come up are the most popular... Kurtis. They look at it and say, "That looks like mine" so.. it MUST be a Kurtis!

    same with anything else.

    Every old racing boat is a "Miss Budwieser"
    Every old plane is either a "Red Baron" or "Spirit of St. Louis"
    Every old custom is a "George Barris car"
    and my favorite.. Every old 327 Chevy engine is a "Corvette engine"

    JD
     
  14. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    [​IMG]

    Nice car, NICE seat! See that ribbed aluminum oil tank on the side, I have one of those exact ones if anyone needs one.
     
  15. Bill Van Dyke
    Joined: May 21, 2008
    Posts: 810

    Bill Van Dyke
    Member

    Damn..These pictures make me want to sell the Maxim, tell my daughter to find another ride and buy a Hank Henry sprinter. Was a gofer for one of his cars here in Tucson in the '50's
     

  16. It's getting scary, a '33 Chevy tudor got frontended in my town and the paper called it a Model T!
     
  17. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Brian, in your original post about your new toy, you mentioned the Bromme car. It brought to mind the original Bromme car, as you probably know, the original was refered to as Andy Gump due to its distinctive nose. Here's a few pics of different versions of that car that led a loooong life. As a side note, when Bromme built the car it was to be a copy of a Watson Champ car, but he cut the tubing too short so it became a sprint car.
     

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  18. greeno
    Joined: Feb 2, 2006
    Posts: 144

    greeno
    Member
    from Fresno,Ca.

    Gary's car was last driven at Phoneix, it has been restored as original by Dave Masterman of Fresno,ca. He sold it to Dick Woodlands of ATASCADERO,CA who has it in his collection.
    Gary
     
  19. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I understand the weight/fire danger issues and all, but damn I sure miss fully upolstered race cars!
     
  20. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Good to know, another one saved. Does he ever bring it out to the vintage shows? There was another very similar car built by the Nish family (the B'ville Nish's ) they called Frankenstien that raced Phoneix also. Had full independent suspension from Ken Hamiltons Indy car I believe.
     
  21. I want to see Frankenstein! Seems like it had a huge trackwidth.
     

  22. Yeah and every old Indy Roadster is a Watson!
     
  23. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    You could say that :D
     

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  24. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,866

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I LOVE it!
    What did you use for power?

    PS - I like the old FED digger in the background too.
     
  25. Graham08
    Joined: Oct 2, 2007
    Posts: 118

    Graham08
    Member

    It seems to me that the Elder car may have had a second cage put on it at some point in its life. I have an Open Wheel somewhere with a picture of Ziggy Snider flying out of Winchester with the cage partially collapsed and his arms hanging out. I don't know if the second cage was different than the first, but it might explain why it doesn't look like a normal Grant King cage.

    Funny, I was digging through some old Open Wheel's the other night and ran across the article about Gary B's car. The engine wasn't offset, but rather layed over 45 degrees. Turns out at the time USAC had put a weight penalty on the offset cars, something like 1700 for a roadster and 1350 for an upright. I think this is why the rules currently state the engine must be installed within 1 degree of vertical.

    Paul Leffler also built some beautiful stuff. All of the Armstrong Mould cars were Lefflers.
     
  26. jimg12
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 307

    jimg12
    Member

    BZNEIL, The car you are setting in as a kid. Was that Whiskey Jim's car that ran at Lawrenceburg?
    Jim Graybeal
     
  27. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Yeah, it would be a mistake, in my opinion, to define any old race car by what cage was welded on the rails. More than one was rebuilt/modified with whatever was the choice of the one doing the work. An unexact science at best.
     

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  28. crossroads
    Joined: Sep 5, 2008
    Posts: 73

    crossroads
    Member

  29. racer67x
    Joined: Oct 30, 2007
    Posts: 262

    racer67x
    Member

    anyone else collect them?
    I love going back thru the old "Open Wheel" magazines..couple weeks ago I had no power for almost a week (Ike) and spent every night reading old issues with a lantern.
    :)
    I have a complete collection from the first 5 years and and a dozen or more from the rest of cirulation.
    not for sale but if anyone needs some info from any of them shoot me a PM.
     
  30. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 7,933

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I've got every one except one issue from early-mid 80s that had A.J. on the cover.
     

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