The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.
do you remember the scoops on my hood?
...got up close and personal with this car a few years back......still imprinted on my brain...
The accident happened toward the end of May. Longtime friend and business partner Ebb Rose took Herb to dinner in Brownsburg, Indiana. On the way back to Indy there was a big traffic jam on I-74 with every lane blocked. Somehow they came upon the scene, weren't able to stop and crashed into some stopped cars. Porter was very seriously hurt and wasn't able to recover from his injuries.
Hello fella's! Looking good as always.
Waaaaay back around page 270 we discussed the Packard Indy cars of 1923. These cars were DOC, inline 6's. Updraft carburetors, and very pretty.
I mentioned at that time, that there only remained parts to one of the 3 cars built, and that they were on shelves awaiting restoration in the PACKARD museum in Dayton Ohio.
Well, the time has finally come! and the ol' girl is getting restored!
We at Zakira's have been entrusted with restoring the Engine.
My question to you all is:
Lets see hwat you know, what pictures you have, and stories to tell!
Of the 3 cars built Ralph DePalma drove chassis #3. THAT is the car that survives. We have found numerous #3's stamped in the parts!
BUT... I'[d like to see pics of all Three as they were the same.
Here are a few shots to get ya going.. as well as whats left of the engine.
Thanks guys.. I know this is a little EARLIER than what ya'll usually discuss, but I know you all enjoy learning along with me!
Just want to say, THANK YOU! to all that post here. I check this thread daily. John
All I can say is thank God there are people and institutions still around that have the dream and finances to bring these recreations and restorations into exisitence and that there are still those with the skills and historical integrity to see the job gets done.
(I think we'll hear some more choice expletives from Jim in the engine room on this one) lol
Guys thanks for all the help!
I am pretty confidant with my radiator/ hose set up and air flow into the radiator. I went over it with Ron Davis A couple months ago and knows his cooling systems. I also added an electric fan to add to the flow.
I am running gas, so I have more heat to deal with than alky. The car is actually running pretty good, I ran back to back at Lawrenceburg for about 25 minutes and at the end of the last session it got up to about 240 degrees, so I am not far off. I kept the car running and took the hood off and it went down to 180 very quickly. That tells me I just need to get the hot air out.
I can't really move the side panel out because it is behind the hood and the side panel wraps around the bottom frame tube. Good suggestion though.
Roy, The scoops you have are similar to the bolt on scoops I bought. They are my first choice I was just concerned they might not let out enough air.
I made a new belly pan that is basically wide open.
Forgot to add, I went 1 step richer on the pill and the car ran great and had no cooling issues at all, but a few weeks later when I went to start it, It was to rich at idle and soaked the plugs before it would even fire. Put the leaner pill back in with some thrashing help from indyrjc and it ran a little hot, and under powered. So I am guessing I need to Lean out the barrel valve to run the richer pill. I will tackle that this spring.
If you mean engine belly pan wide open, I would have a hard time believing any additional openings would help.
I know you like that electric fan (and I believe you have a starter) for warm up and tuning but might the fan and any shrouding be impeding air flow above a 30 mph speed or so?
The Brits have a pretty good handle on 21st century FE race cars, I suspect a Indy car would look similar to this:
Re the Packard specials and Josh's pictures:
Was anyone else stuck by the lift on those cams?
I work on a lot of top end twenties race stuff and they look mammoth!!
Also ,check the valve size.
The clearances on the follow with that lift is going to have to be spot on, depending on the timing of course.
With the size of the valves and the ports,I wonder about the gas speed though.
Josh ,did any of the information that came with the job indicate the revs they used?
Beautiful too the cross bracing on the cam bearing caps and the main cylinder head towards the spark plug cups, but I suppose with an organisation the size of Packard's there would have been plenty of people to do plenty of thinking.
Are they Packard carbs ,or Millers, or something totally different?
They are also pretty impressive!!
Love your work ,good luck with the project.
We lost a great driver and wrench this morning, and a good frend. John Leverenz passed away today.
He drove Modifieds in Minn, So. Dakota and Iowa early in his carrier, Sprints and Midgets on the west coast and IMCA in the Midwest. He was a great wrench and motor man also. John and I had four cars together wining many races together. He wrenched cars for Wichert in Penn. and many Woo teams. He was also in the Knoxville Raceway Hall Of Fame. He was 81 years old
There will be a celebration of his life on Friday from 1-3 pm at.
The Dog Run Saloon
320 W. Supersition Blvd. Suite 112
Apache Junction, Az. 85120
Ph. # 1-480-773-1758
Rest in peace John Leverenz and thanks for the memories in modifieds, supermodifieds, sprints and midgets and you left a legacy in Jackson, Minnesota.
How bout' this for a modern day front engine Indy car?
You've got a good eye!
The lift on the cams is big.. 7/16" on the Int. 3/8" on the Ex.
The clearance is SUPER tight on the valves, and the timing.. If the cams are off more than a couple degrees they WILL CRASH! Infact, the way they were in the head when we got it, was way off, and a gentle turning with a screw driver on the teeth made the valves contact each other.
YES, the cross bracing is a cool touch. Also, the Ex cam is fitted with a center lobe to drin the Cam cover mounted Air pump. This is Genius!! Very simple, and a WAY better way to do it than MILLER even did!! Surprised more other manufactures didn't ran with that.. Good way to do it!
The carbs are supposed to be PACKARDS. BUT.. We work on and reproduce MILLER carbs here everyday. We know what were looking at... Shhhhhh... They are Millers. They don't say MILLER anywhere, but these cars were built just down the street from HARYY MILLER's shop, in Ralph DePalma's race shop.. It's not hard to read between the lines and see what transpired..
Thanks for the help guys!
I'll keep you all posted.
The quick and easy cure to overheating problems.
Josh ,I am sure Zakiras will have these drawings, but here is M.Bugatti's solution to the air pump, driven by an eccentric from the rear of the camshaft on the Type 51 , the top end of which he totally plagiarised from the American "raid" Millers which went to France but were then left behind when the drivers returned to the US.
These were the Packard Cable cars which were repatriated to the US by Griff Borgeson ,one of which is in the Smithsonian.
It would be interesting to know if the Packard solution was similar , or just variations on a theme!!
Didn't burn up much more than money, but the Motor Trend Spl. was a interesting car from 1951.
The April & May issues of HRM carried articles on this car but, to me (in retrospect), the most interesting aspect was the Engine that was removed from it to make way for the GMC. A DOHC Voelker. Voelker built his heads to fit Packard in-line sixes. Check out the web site for Speedy Bill's engine collection.
Nine min event video from VintageMotorsport.com
Yes! Excellent help! Thank you!! That drawing is VERY similar to the set up this 1923 Packard Engine has.
The Packard CABLE cars were an awesome story.. The Packard CABLE company was a sublet of PACKARD Motor cars, I believe possibly a brother of the family. My boss Jim worked on the team that restored the Yellow and Purple PACKARD CABLE MILLER for that is in the Smithsonian. My mom and Nephew were there last summer, and couldn't find it, so they asked a Museum worker, and he advised them that it was in storage, due to the "rotating" display situation they have there much like Indy Museum.
(On a side note to tie in with THIS SITE, and the HOT ROD SCENE around these parts.. If you study the pictures of the Packard Cable car when it first arrived back in the states, at the shipping yard. Cliff and a couple buddies that were on hand pried open the shipping container to get a look at the UNRESTORED preserved Miller. Look at the pictures closely, and you'll notice one of cliff's "Buddies" that are standing there. You HOT RODDERS will recognize one of the legends of the scene, Mr. Ed "BIG DADDY" Roth! ")
It's cool that he was there, and kinda understood the significance of what they were looking at..
Thanks for the picture! We'll print it off and put it to use!
Shortly after it was out of the crate.
Unless Roth had some serious Rhinoplasty done and had his nose extended eek I don't believe that's him in the pic.
A little OT but I got a new toy in the arsenal. I'd like to see some pics of push bumpers if anybody has any. Not the vintage way but thus will make vintage meets much more relaxed.
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The bearded man in the picture is Griff Borgeson.
Just finished watching the YOU TUBE highlight reel of the career of Denny Zimmerman and you are to be congratulated young man. You made it to Indianapolis starting with a modified coupe on a local short track and that is the way it should be.
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