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Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,165

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Continuing to BZ Neil

    Since you have proven you have fuel supply to the pump and that the arrow showing rotation direction on the front of the pump is counter clockwise when viewed from the front of the engine, and assuming that you have a new pump, or flow tested pump from Ron's, I'm betting on this initial start-up that your starter is not spinning the engine fast enough or long enough to purge the system and develop the pressure you need to acheive light up.

    When starting mine initially, and every spring after my over-winter draining disassembly and cleaning, I follow this procedure

    Starting an unprimed (new or drained and purged) system

    In gear, get up to starting speed with push truck

    When oil pressure guage shows pressure

    Turn on fuel valve to supply the barrel valve and fully open throttle to fill with fuel and purge air in system from pump through the filter, barrel valve, by passes, fuel lines and nozzles

    Maintain wide open throttle for ten seconds

    Release the throttle

    Switch ignition "ON"

    The engine should then have started

    Ease into throttle and pull away from push truck



    While most Chevy II midgets ran injection and many were EVM, they mostly ran alcohol and the proper pump, barrel valve spool, nozzles, and by pass sizes are well known.

    I would suspect that Ron's is dialed in on the same information for gasoline and your problem is not there.

    So get yourself a 2 foot by 4 foot piece of 5 ply, drill two widely spaced holes near the top edge on the long side, pass some rope through the holes and fasten to the radiator support of a pick-up truck with a steel bumper.

    Then on Sunday afternoon when the Bengals are playing, find an industrial business parking lot and proceed as per link below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLC8bzkkW3g

    This was 8/29/2009 about 40 degrees and a 30 mile per hour wind and alcohol that wasn't happy about vaporizing.

    Another thought if you haven't already done it, pull the plugs and try the above procedure with your starter. You may get to the point where you will see adequate vaporized fuel out the plug holes. Insert the plugs and hope.

    No Smoking, Please
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  2. racer5c
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 2,218

    racer5c
    Member

     
  3. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,165

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

     
  4. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    Guys, Thanks for all the Help! Your video was great.

    My Supply from tank to pump is AN#8, pump to barrel valve and return is AN#6. Roy suggested that a couple months ago.

    Everything 28dryer is saying makes sense. I does seem like it is just not pumping fast enough and long enough to purge the system and build up enough pressure. I did run it with the plugs out but not for 10 seconds + at a time. I will run it longer and see what happens. If not I will try pushing it off this spring.

    I am going to put more fuel in, right now I am not much higher than the pump, another 3 gallons should put it well above.

    As far as the torque tube it does angle down towards the rear but not at a very steep angle. I may have the rear filled to high. I have it filled to the bottom of the lowest inspection hole, just about 1 quart.

    Thanks again for everyone's help!!!
     
  5. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,559

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Just brainstorming here:

    Have you thought of pressurizing the fuel tank - nothing crazy here, just one-to-two PSI regulated gas - maybe inert argon from a welding supply - to force feed the entire system and purge the lines of air similar to bleeding a brake system? You may need to crack the fuel return line or run it into a container.
     
  6. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,189

    Jim Nise
    Member

    INDYRJC, the Rutherford picture shows an offset to the suspension that isn't in the unknown car picture. Just an observation.
     
  7. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Not to mention the JR 36 looks to have a 'watts' shackled arm/2 link setup and the ? 36 has a 4 link roller arm setup.
     
  8. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,165

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

     
  9. joemac05
    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 317

    joemac05
    Member

    I have to start sprint car engines on the dyno all the time. The drill is always the same..... run the starter with the plugs out till you get fuel showing at the nozzels. Even that is hard on the starter. A better solution is to run the pump with a drill motor and thoroughly purge the system into a container before priming the nozzels. Having done that and heating up the coolant the engine will start and run instantly. If the heaters have been on long enough to bring the coolant and oil up to temp it's even ready for a pull right away as long is it has previously had the rings run in. Warming up an alcohol engine without heaters is just plain brutal... some will never warm up without a load.

    As far as how much the pump output is, the pump should be the correct flow rating for the application so the style will make no difference.

    And while your cranking with the plugs out check the timing. Do not even think of lighting it up without doing that.
     
  10. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 972

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    I agree. I guess I was going on the assumption that modifications over a period of years might have happened. And the first thing that got my attention was the rear roll bar which looks identical. An early "four post" bolt on cage appears to have been added to the JR36 which means the car wasn't new in 1972. It's certainly a distinctive car that someone should recognize for sure. Compared to sprint cars or midgets there weren't all that many Dirt Championship cars around and the ones that were ran for a whole lot of seasons.
     
  11. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,029

    Speedwrench
    Member

    BZ - What material is the line from the pump to the metering block lined with?
     
  12. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Oh yeah, I agree that it could have been modified over the years but going by the meager pics and info it's pretty hard to tell. Really, if the owner of the ?36 is serious about finding the history he needs to learn to take better pics. Those shots of 12" square parts of the car leave more questions than answers. Kinda like taking a picture of somebodys foot and and then asking for them to be identified. :D
     
  13. jjones752
    Joined: Apr 3, 2008
    Posts: 205

    jjones752
    Member
    from Indy

    Another possible "clue" that the two 36's aren't the same car is the grill, a piece that's possibly less likely to have been changed:
    Although it's difficult to tell due to the different angles the pictures were taken, the JR 36 seems to have fewer bars in the grille, and the starter snout hole appears to be lower in the opening than the 36 that's now in Oz. Also, it doesn't look like there's a scalloped edge around the JR 36's grille.
    Shock mounts are higher up on the JR axle, no visible exterior oil tank, and it looks like a one-piece hood rather than a separate cowl.
    Nothing definitive, though; I say ship it back up and gissa look!:D
     
  14. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    There ya go, if he ships it back over to it's motherland I'm sure we can figure it out and it probably won't get lost in shipping or anything. ;)
     
  15. KK500
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 354

    KK500
    Member

    When I came here in 2006 (on a Green Card) the Aussie dollar would buy 76 u.s.cents, it will now buy $1.04.........that's 37%......(i am now a citizen)
    Cost of living is higher in Australia tho.......... so it's not all beer and bbq!


    I inspect, broker and ship cars (classic and muscle cars mostly) for Australians interested in buying, and demand has not increased as much as u would expect looking at the $numbers.

    FYI....Australia has a relatively new law that allows vehicles (road cars) over 30 years old to remain left-hand drive. This is beneficial cos the cost of converting was around 30% of the investment, and the conversion was sometimes a compromise in steering geometry having to mount the steering box symmetrically opposite the idler arm.
    Also, vehicles of this age are generally collector or club cars, so benefit in remaining original.


    Jim ..........disclaimer: the above info is OT
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  16. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    re: ?36 car- The plot thickens, as jjones pointed out the Stahl Bros. (out of Ohio) ran a #36 Champ car in 66. According to Ultimate racing history it was a 1953 Kuzma, so I think we can rule out a 4 bar with a roller arm 4 link. However, they also ran a sprint car in the 60s and though it's not much of a pic, compare the lettering style of the 6 to the 6 in the Aussie pics. Also check out the shape of the cowls. Hmmmmm.
     

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  17. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 659

    BZNEIL
    Member

    The lines are the black push on hose from speedway. Not sure of the material, but made for gas and alcohol.

    Thanks for all the Help everybody, That is what makes this place so special. No time to mess with it till Sunday, Going to fill the tank up , and crank it for as long as the starter will take with the plugs out and see what happens. I also need to add some antifreeze to the water, It is getting cold here in Cincy at night!

    Thanks again,
    NEIL
     
  18. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,189

    Jim Nise
    Member

    Rootie, that 36 sprint car looks like a Ron Ward car.
     
  19. markw8
    Joined: Mar 24, 2012
    Posts: 2

    markw8
    Member
    from akron ohio

    My first post here. all I can say is WOW. I'm all the way up to Feb. 09 reading.

    Mark
     
  20. Denny Zimmerman
    Joined: Jan 8, 2010
    Posts: 504

    Denny Zimmerman
    Member

    Rootie, Is that Cy Fairchild in the 36? Denny Z.
     
  21. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,029

    Speedwrench
    Member

    Looks like him to me.
     
  22. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Yes it is. Here's a shot of him at Salem in the Stahl car that shows the numbering style better. Not definitive, by any means, but kinda makes me think there could be a connection between the Stahl Bros. and the ?36 down in Australia.
     

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  23. OITSOG
    Joined: Oct 3, 2012
    Posts: 15

    OITSOG
    Member

    I also have pictures of the Atlas Chrome Special from the frame up build to the motor and then complete. I even have the original Sales Contract and a personal letter on requesting fuel from Frank Wearne before the race in Portland. I need to get some pictures up and was waiting to hear some interest. I do have a response to get back to and have not forgotten you.
     
  24. jjones752
    Joined: Apr 3, 2008
    Posts: 205

    jjones752
    Member
    from Indy

    I think we're sneaking up on this one; I see a connection too, but I don't think the Stahl Bros. sprinter is the car in Oz. No oil tank, I can't see the radius rods on the sprinter, so I think they're shorter than the "mystery car", and although the cowl shape is similar, it's still integral with the hood .
    It's definitely not a '53 Kuzma, though. That would've no doubt been a single rail with a spring front or parallel bars.
    It may even be that Ron Ward (or somebody) was building the Stahls an updated Champ Car to replace the old girl, and it was never finished; I once had a TQ that was a Sherman Oakes' copy of a Bob Bogan copy of a scaled-down AJ Watson 4-bar design that never got past the stage of completion the 36 car sits in today.
    Pure speculation. And blatant, regretful nostalgia...
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  25. mac miller
    Joined: Jan 13, 2007
    Posts: 522

    mac miller
    Member
    from INDY

    HA! I'm getting confused. You guys claim the car in Aus is a champ car and now you are comparing it to the Stahl Bros. sprint car. It seems easy enough for someone to measure the wheelbase to decide if it is a champcar or a sprint car.

    Actually there were quite a few of the Ward-Watson-Phillips space frame/4 bar sprint cars with Watson bodywork built in the midwest by various car owners and builders during the mid 60s for USAC competition.

    The Stahl Bros. were farm implement dealers from Fletcher Ohio. Their sprint cars were painted Case yellow.
     
  26. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Yeah, nothing proof-positive about this at all and I agree that it's not the sprint car streched out or anything. I'm kinda thinking along the lines you are though, in that somebody (maybe not even the Stahl Bros.) was building/rebuilding/recreating a champ car and used the nose off the Stahl's Kuzma of 66. I've looked high and low for a pic of the Stahl Champ car but with no luck. That doesn't surprise me as it was only entered in a few races and didn't qualify for any. So I doubt there was ever a throng of photogs gathered around to take pictures of it. :)
     
  27. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Actually I'm not "claiming" anything, it's just pure speculation on a cold Rocky Mountain morning. :D And I agree that it is a simple matter to measure a car and provide more information. It's also a simple matter to take decent realitive pictures but I guess the Aussies aint quite figured that out. Of course it's not like we're trying to determine the fate of the free world either.:D
     
  28. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    For Ben Cook:
     

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  29. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I would be interested, too! Thanks for anything you can post.
     
  30. bcook
    Joined: Oct 24, 2010
    Posts: 23

    bcook
    Member

    rootie, thanks for the pictures...sure would like to know where the don foster car is, bill and i are currently restoring the 39...its owned by stan lobitz...quite a story how it found its way home!!!
     

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