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Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member


    I don't know. Didn't put much thought into it.

    There are always gonne be hits that are "just right" and NOTHING we can do, or design will help that. Trying to do that, has gave us all the CRAP that is in and on modern race cars. I agree that we should build em safe and strong, but that can get carried away. Would a "peaked" X bar over the drivers compartment helped...? Maybe, but then how does he get out fast incase of a fire? Some say, "go out the side" but the "Do-gooders" have made the seats such monstrosities that exiting out the side is damn near impossible.

    I'm not painting you (Metal bender) or any one else into that group.. You guys are Vintage guys, and you know the "Deal".. But there already a lot of "Cries" being heard on the MODERN race websites to the effect of "What was wrong with that cage" "What was wrong with the track preparation" "How can we slow these cars down" and what not.. Thats' bad! It will do nothing but screw up a good show!

    I'm Just saying to remember the words of Rich Vogler:

    "Racing is dangerous, if you can't accept that, go do something safe, like Play Golf"

    My prayers are with Shane, hope he recovers to stand on it again.
     
  2. metal bender
    Joined: Apr 1, 2009
    Posts: 177

    metal bender
    Member
    from texas

    That roll cage should of stayed up if the right matieral was used and wall thickness was at least .120 , it broke in too many places ! Oh ya, that Rich guy he drove for me !
     
  3. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    .095 is the min., which is probably what it was built too.
     
  4. Sprinter 2
    Joined: Apr 2, 2009
    Posts: 135

    Sprinter 2
    Member
    from Ct.

    Bruce Bowen, master at work !
     
  5. Sprinter 2
    Joined: Apr 2, 2009
    Posts: 135

    Sprinter 2
    Member
    from Ct.

    forgot the picture
     

    Attached Files:

  6. [​IMG]
    W. Grove 1950 Indy Champ Cars
     
  7. [​IMG]
    B. Holland's Malamud after getting booted in the rear by B. Schindler @ Reading.
    They were going down the backstretch when it happened. The entire rear left the
    car. The car went toward the 3rd turn on the tail. I forget where the rear &
    wheels ended up. No injuries.
     
  8. CTtoPA
    Joined: Jun 17, 2008
    Posts: 252

    CTtoPA
    Member

    That's quite speculative, don't you think? You don't know the physics involved to say whether or not that cage "should have stayed up". How many pieces did it break into? Has anyone inspected the car?

    BTW-I believe it was a Beast chassis.
     
  9. Miller27
    Joined: Sep 18, 2010
    Posts: 10

    Miller27
    Member

    I dont think it matters who built the car, that was one hell of a hit on top of the cage, even if the two cross bars were .120 wall, the two cross bars look to have taken most of the G load plus these cars are bigger and weigh more than a sprinter.............the latest news say he has several broken bones in his neck and back and is in a induced coma......hopefully he will have a full recovery....
     
  10. hlfuzzball
    Joined: Jan 27, 2005
    Posts: 215

    hlfuzzball
    Member
    from Michigan

    Shane Hmiel was in a RW Benic car, so I would think it was a Maxim since Benic is a Maxim dealer.

    Tom in Detroit
     
  11. CTtoPA
    Joined: Jun 17, 2008
    Posts: 252

    CTtoPA
    Member

    As far as I know Scott is only involved in the sprint car, not the silver crown cars. I believe the silver crown cars are just Rotondo Weirich.
     
  12. Ken_Schou
    Joined: Oct 6, 2009
    Posts: 822

    Ken_Schou
    Member

    No use in second guessing, none of us will get to actually inspect the wreck and few of us here (if any) have the true expertise to technically and properly analyse it.

    Right or wrong, as we all know, in this sport we all enjoy & love, at times it takes something like this (something unexpected many times) for things to be changed, be re-engineeed, made safer.

    Maybe the cage material could have been thicker? Maybe cross bars in the top would have helped? Maybe the entire cage structure should be re-engineered? Maybe there should have been a soft(er) wall (SAFER Barrier)? And/or MAYBE an almost uncountable number of other things????

    All we can hope for (regarding the cars) is that the USAC management has the scope & depth to have the physics of this wreck and the entirety of the car involved properly, completely, minutely analysed (whether in house or out sourced) and that in turn leads to increased safety.

    Meanwhile it seems that the first surgery on Shane Miehl's neck went well and that following it, stimulation to his brain showed movement in his arms. Also the day after the neck surgery his color looked better and that he opened his eyes to the sound of his father's (Steve's) voice and with his mother (Lisa) yelling at him, he seemed to nod is head in response.

    Today he was to undergo another 6 to 8 hour surgery, this time on his back. This is the posting after that surgery was completed. .... "Second surgery exceeded expectations. Doctors are encouraged by his progress.".

    Those of you on Facebook can folow the postings by his mother and family members on .... Shane Hmiel - Road to Recovery at http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/pages/Shane-Hmiel-Road-to-Recovery/156856564346848

    It's now 1:00 AM in New York right now and that last posting was put up 3 hours ago .. about 10:00 PM EDST.

    Although things are seeminly looking brighter .. he's by no means out of the woods yet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  13. Hey guys, Before we all get our shorts in a knot.....Without seeing the car, without checking the tubing wall thickness or anything else....we are guessing. My opinion...one should not be doing that.... Scott Benic provides a very safe car to ALL his drivers. He knows what he is doing. Speculation and rumors will do nothing to gather the facts. Champ cars are big heavy open wheel cars. The laws of physics can be cruel. That car hit in the worse place at a fast speed where the kinetic energy had a small footprint to sustain it. I know all the racers on this site remember when they built Indy cars in the 50s and 60s like tanks thinking that was the safe way to do it. Then it was discovered a crumple effect was better for driver survivability. This is a sport where drivers get hurt no matter how thick something is or this and that. That's why our grandmothers don't drive open wheel racecars. If it wasn't risky or dangerous, most of us who ever strapped ourselves in any race car, wouldn't have done it.
    Let's keep our wits about us and let USAC do their job.
    End of rant,
    HG :cool:
     
    Rick Wright likes this.
  14. hlfuzzball
    Joined: Jan 27, 2005
    Posts: 215

    hlfuzzball
    Member
    from Michigan

  15. Agreed. That was a 'no way out' deal. Even if the cage held, the driver would still be coming towards the wall on a hit like that.








     
  16. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    To quote Ernest Hemmingway: There's only 3 real sports, auto racing, bullfighting and mountain climbing. Everything else is just a game.
     
  17. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 790

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I hope you don't mind me correcting, but this is July 31 in 1949, the first year of the Indy Car extravaganza at WG. Duane Carter is on the pole in the "City of Tacoma" Kurtis/Offy, with Johnny Mantz outside in the "Grancor" TQ Kurtis/Offy and Tommy Hinnerhsitz following in the Bowes/Offy.
     
  18. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 790

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Again, a slight correction if I may: this was April 2 in 1950, and Schindler was actually driving the Malamud - Holland was in the race, too, but in the Mathews/Offy now owned by Ted Nyquist (it was one of only two Sprint car appearances for him that year). The actual accident happened in a special 3-lap match race between Hinnershitz and Schindler, but what caused the rear end to go AWOL is not exactly clear. See the following newspaper accounts:

    http://news.google.de/newspapers?id...0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1572,1065718&dq=schindler&hl=en

    http://news.google.de/newspapers?id...0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6418,3071610&dq=schindler&hl=en
     
  19. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 790

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    And let me add my best wishes for a speedy recovery to Shane Hmiel... :(
     
  20. arcarace
    Joined: May 20, 2008
    Posts: 18

    arcarace
    Member

    Hey Larry, we missed you at Milwaukee last July, Bud told us you couldn't make it for some reason.

    Good luck

    Rick Tackman Sr. & Rick Tackman Jr.
     
  21. jakearoo92
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 11

    jakearoo92
    Member
    from Indy

    If anyone has any Bubby Jones racing pictures or any Roger Beck Racing Development pictures can you please post them? A picture of Bubby Jones in a Roger Beck car would be VERY appreciated also. thanks much
     
  22. Steve Bonesteel
    Joined: Aug 31, 2009
    Posts: 166

    Steve Bonesteel
    Member
    from Clovis, Ca

    I need some help. Could someone give the early history of Bobby Marshman before Indy cars. I am looking for info of his sprint car racing. Thanks
     
  23. Ken_Schou
    Joined: Oct 6, 2009
    Posts: 822

    Ken_Schou
    Member

    Latest postings on Facebook re SHANE HMIEL

    "Shane is going down for down at 2 30 for angioplasty i to ck his carotid artery to see if stretched If its thin they will put in stinit thx for your contiued prayers that greatly appreciated by me steve and tyler and the rest of his family and millions of friends thx"

    "Had comfortable night. Looks good and moved both arms on command. Thanks for prayers and keep them coming. -- The Hmiel Family"
     
  24. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 743

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Is that the same (re numbered from 63 to 33) City of Tacoma car that Hal Cole drove in The 500 in 1948?
    [​IMG]

    Mark Ulinski brought the #63 to The Millers at Milwuakee Meet in July
    [​IMG]
     
  25. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I believe it is. Leo Dobry bought it new from Kurtis and I believe it was also Jack Beckleys 1st head wrenching gig.
     

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  26. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    The GranCor #14
     

    Attached Files:

  27. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    GOOD TIMING ROOTIE!!!

    Lets talk about that Grancor #14..

    As many of you know about a year ago I found a KK2000 chassis that had been raced as a dirt car all the way up to 1976! Well, the research began and as with tracking down these wonderful cars there are LEADS, RUMORS, TRUTHS, wild goose chases, Wrong turns, right turns and my favorite.. Hunches. ;)

    So, let me bring ya'll up to date on what we have found, proven, and had a hunch on!

    We know that there were only about a dozen KK2000's built. All of which are covered in Gordon Whites book INDIANAPOLIS RACING CARS of FRANK KURTIS.

    We tried doing it by the NUMBERS (dash tag) but that took us down the wrong path.. it wasn't until I asked my friend Jim Mann to look at the pictures of our Kurtis that he pointed out a very interesting detail.

    Only ONE of the dozen KK2000's ran at Indy had a REAR BUMPER and side Nerf bars built into the rear hair pins. ..and our car had those EXACT bars all throughout its long life as a race car.

    So, we went down another road that led us to MANY interesting facts, stories, and Hunches, and in the end put us 99.9% sure which Kurtis K2000 we have!

    It appears that in 1948 Andy Granatelli bought this KK2000 (below) and Entered it at the Speedway in 1948 as the Grancor-Werner #69. Parsons, Ayulo, and Bergere practiced in the car, but could not get it up to speed to Qualify.

    [​IMG]

    Then in 1949 after a bad crash at Springfield by Mack Hellings that involved Andres it was rebuilt into a "Three-quarter" car and possibly re-numbered (dash tag). It was then driven in the 1949 Indy 500 as the Grancor #14, finishing 19th when a rod bearing failed. Granatelli then sold the car to PETE WALES later that year and Wales ran it as the Neal's Restaurant #14. At Del-Mar in this car, Cole was involved in Rex Mays' fatal accident. This is where the Rear bumpers and Nerf bars appear. Also notice the Extended Tie rod end on the front. This could be changed to a short standard length, re locating the front axle thus making it a Sprint car to be ran on Half miles. (pretty neat concept)

    [​IMG]

    Then for 1950 at INDY, it was ran as the Whales owned #62 driven by Johnny McDowell finishing 18th. (below)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    John Tolan also took the wheel in 1950 at various tracks.

    [​IMG]

    That brings us to 1951, Wales changed the number to #34, switched to Halibrands, and lettered the car up as the WALES Trucking Co. Spl. Dallas, Tex. Johnnie Tolan is at the wheel, but the car was unable to Qualify for the race.

    [​IMG]

    Wales tried to make the race again in 1952 with the same car but had NO success. At this time Wales had moved to Dayton Ohio, purchaced a newer Kurtis and continued to attempt to race at indy. The KK2000 being discussed here doesn't re-appear until a couple years later owned by DALE DOTY as the Doty Cevy Spl. (Dale was also from Dayton Ohio and possibly friends with Wales) At this point the car has been Modified a lot and permanently made into a sprint car, a Cross spring front end car actually. A different hood and nose appears to. But, notice from the Cowl back the car remains the SAME! Same Seat even!! It was driven by Red Riegel in the pictures below (when it was White)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then by 1957 it got painted Black and was being driven by Curly Dogget. During that time Dale Doty sold the car to Doc Bently and raced it as the Bently Chevy Spl. Curly still drove it and soon after that Curly Bought the car himself and raced it as the Doggett's Chevy Spl. Curly is still alive and well living in Alaska!! He has been a great help in the research of this car. Here is one picture of it as the Bently Sprinter and various pictures of Curly in the car when he owned it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I love this picture below!! ON THE GAS!!!

    [​IMG]

    The man himself...

    [​IMG]

    After Curly was finished it was raced throughout the years, had a cage added and a newer fiberglass body. This picture below is the last way it was raced on pavement in 1976. An amazing life of a race car indeed!

    [​IMG]

    The best part is, ya'll will get to see the restoration of this KK2000 first hand here on the HAMB!

    I'd apprieciate ANY info, input, or good ol "Hunches"...

    and thank you ROOTIE for yet another picture we didn't have!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  28. RABs32
    Joined: Nov 14, 2009
    Posts: 807

    RABs32
    Member
    from new jersey

    Hey Josh, Have you made a decision on which version are you going to restore the car as....Rich
     
  29. Jaime Oaks
    Joined: Jul 4, 2007
    Posts: 41

    Jaime Oaks
    Member

    Well said Josh.
     
  30. Mr. Ferner, its good to hear from you. Corrections are noted.
    Upon checking, I had 1949 but posted 1950, my error.
    Re Schindler, my memory was of 2 cars involved, but that was 60 years ago.
    mlight9.
     

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