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History Vintage "Cageless" Midget Picture Thread

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by KKx125, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. Paul, The IN/Out box you have will work with the V860.
    28dryer is correct. Most of the V860 Got the back of the block cut os about 2 or 3 inch.
    We used to cut the block in a large band saw and then face it square to the crankshaft in the mill. After that was done we would drill and tap 6 bolts in the lip of the block to attach it to a ¼ thick motor plate. The top two block bolts usually needed to have a piece welded in to get enough material to drill and tap.
    Once the plate was bolted to the shortened block the In/out box would bolt to the plate. The crankshaft drive that you have needs to be made to the correct length to engage the shift coupler allowing slight end play when in gear. Then the main shaft of the Box needs to be machined to fit your pilot bushing and cut to length. This entire fitment needs to be done with the block shortened. Crank/ motor plate and in/out box installed.
    I believe that you could do the same work to the shaft and coupler without shortening the block. My only concerns would be the Long coupler hanging of the back of the Crankshaft and the overall length of the engine /In/out box.
    I have attached a couple of photos to give a idea of how much we cut off the blocks.
     

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  2. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    thanks for the good info, I was originally going to attempt to cut my block but then changed my mind to try to keep the full bell? Now I am considering doing the cut after reading this info. I fell I can make the extending the drive coupler but I too am un-easy about the length it will be hanging out. My buddy owns a machine shop, I used to work there too doing head work for him. He hasn't seen a v8-60 since he was an apprentise machinist in the 70's! He mills modern blocks so I guess this old iron won't be to much problem? I guess I have to do some numbers crunching before I attack this problem. my biggest handicap is visualizing what needs to be done then being able to tell my machinist buddy what we are gonna do (with confidence?), I unfortunatly don't have anyone local that knows about this stuff that I can lean on or learn from in person so I count on my internet friends to help guide me LOL!
    thanks,
    Paul
     
  3. Steve Bonesteel
    Joined: Aug 31, 2009
    Posts: 166

    Steve Bonesteel
    Member
    from Clovis, Ca

    KKx125
    Parnelli never drove the car. As the car didn't have much history Woodland and I made it a kind of "what if car". What if Aggy got a roadster in the early for Jones to drive, and Woodland is a personal friend of Parnelli's so we did the car as 98jr.
     
  4. doctordarryl
    Joined: Apr 14, 2011
    Posts: 17

    doctordarryl
    Member
    from NJ

    Latest build - Leader Cards Offy Midget. I found a color photo from the 1950s verifying the fact that this midget was marked "Leader Cards" instead of "Leader Card". Airbrushed with Tamiya Pure White. Frame and roll bar were airbrushed with Tamiya Racing Blue. Decals, three gauge dash (NEW), instrument decals (NEW), and rear brake drums were from Scale Auto Details.
     

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  5. I know this is a long shot but I have seen all kinds of things happen on this thread.

    I have this Kurtis Kraft Chassis #231. I have a interested party that requested I try to identify it. So here I am. #231 is the second known number of a 1948 KK Midget,<O:p></O:p>
    The frame is a four bar parallel bar car and from what I can tell from the original engine mounts and dry sump tank mount it could have been Offy powered at one time. There are a few very distinct modifications. I was hoping someone might recognize them and be able to give some clues on where this frame has been. One is the seat side support to keep the driver in the car, I have never seen one welded to the frame Another one is the rather heavy duty radiator cradle. <O:p></O:p>
    If anyone can be of any help I appreciate it. <O:p></O:p>
    Thanks. Mike<O:p></O:p>
     

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  6. Surfref32
    Joined: Sep 25, 2010
    Posts: 61

    Surfref32
    Member

    Sorry I don't have any info for you but I find it very interesting to see what a KK bare chassis looked like in 1948 and hoped you could answer two questions. Is it chromoly and was it gas welded? The factory welds are pretty nice.
     
  7. DocF
    Joined: Feb 22, 2011
    Posts: 120

    DocF
    Member

    These were made of 4130 aircraft tubing. The frames were gas welded and the factory welds were indeed very nice on early post-war Kurtis frames. I wish I could say that of the add on welds. The person who stick welded those makes my welding look pretty.

    One thing I noticed is the boxy looking reinforcement on the kick ups. Does the frame show evidence of damage in the area of the fish mouths? For those unfamiliar with Kurtis frames, the kick ups were three piece affairs with the tubing deeply fish mouthed to give more area for welding these critical joints.

    Doc
     
  8. kholm65
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 145

    kholm65
    Member
    from NY

    Ronnie Evans
     

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  9. KKx125
    Joined: Dec 22, 2008
    Posts: 72

    KKx125
    Member

    STEVE, Thanks for the reply re.#98 roadster, Just that in the era of the roadster,Info recieved down under from the USA was a little scant, No Internet those days THANKS, GORDON
     
  10. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    well I cut down & re-tapped the hairpins to fit to the original radious rod bracket location on my rail frame and was able to mock up the entire car yesterday. I think it looks decent the rods are not as close looking once I got them on the car,before I was just holding them up to the rail by hand and judging the distances.
    on my on goning In/out box situation, I decided to have my buddy (machinist) help me with cutting and milling the bell on the engine to make up my mid-plate mount, that will happen soon? I am trying to figure out how to use the torque tube bell that was on my midget with my new I/O box. when I went to fit them up together I found although they were both 4 bolt mounts they didn't match up? what t-tube bell would bolt to the I/O box did they have there own special mount for the tube. how can I make this work or what do I need to change?
    Paul
     

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  11. hugh m
    Joined: Jul 18, 2007
    Posts: 2,143

    hugh m
    Member
    from ct.

    Bet you are mixing Chevy and Ford parts on your box...
     
  12. Oh yes !
    As with most race car frames that are 60 years old it has had its share of add ons. Most of them have been removed to restore it back to stock configuration.

    The kick ups are nice with no signs of repairs . What you are calling a boxey area is a simple 1/4 flat gusset on end. Welded to the underside the kick up.

    This was a common reiforced area along with supports to the front and rear of the main tubes extending from the lower hoop.
     
  13. Bob Coutts
    Joined: Dec 6, 2008
    Posts: 24

    Bob Coutts
    Member

    I had the sister car to your DADS. His car was the SHAUTZ FURNATUR STORE #77. MY car was the KINNAMAN #49. MIKE CARUSO now has the car in LAS VEGAS.
     
  14. coolstuff
    Joined: Oct 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,686

    coolstuff
    Member
    from Bettendorf

    If there is anyone in the Iowa/Wisconsin/Illinois area that has any of these - PLEASE bring them to Vintage Torque Fest! We only had 3 or 4 of them out on the track last year and we would LOVE to be able to get at least 8 of them all together on the track.

    Please email me at vintagetorque@gmail.com

    I can send you details!
     
  15. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    I presume you are meaning the rear bell on the I/O being that the rear is a model A?

    I am thinking of fabricating a steel plate that match's up to the I/O flange then cut off the existing flange I have on my t-tube bell & tig the new one on. anyone see any problems with that?
     
  16. Ken_Schou
    Joined: Oct 6, 2009
    Posts: 822

    Ken_Schou
    Member

    THANKS Kris.

    Yes, Ronnie Evans in Milt Smith's Kurtis Offy, just as I remember it / them.
     
  17. DocF
    Joined: Feb 22, 2011
    Posts: 120

    DocF
    Member

    Thanks for the information. I realize that old cars end up with lots of "improvements". I kind of like the concept of the plate gussets as the age of the cars has to make this a weak area. None of the Kurtis midgets I worked on had anything like that. A couple of them were very old, indeed. I stooged on Red Marley's Drewry's Spl., after Charlie Szkendey bought it. Last I knew it was still running with outlaw groups in the Midwest with a Chevy II in it. I also stooged on Greg Flatow's D&D Heet Offy when Billy Humphreys was driving it.

    One night we we were out at Tradin' Walt Lovett's shop, we did find one thing on a Kurtis kit (or copy) that scared the bejeezus out of us. The frame looked to be well put together and very nice. When we started to strip it to repaint it, we found it was brazed, not welded. Walt built a replica and threw that frame away.

    Doc
     
  18. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,030

    Speedwrench
    Member

    One night we we were out at Tradin' Walt Lovett's shop, we did find one thing on a Kurtis kit (or copy) that scared the bejeezus out of us. The frame looked to be well put together and very nice. When we started to strip it to repaint it, we found it was brazed, not welded. Walt built a replica and threw that frame away.

    Doc[/QUOTE]

    Sounds like a guy I used to know who built a few sprint car frames out of stick welded cast iron gas pipe. Always wondered about that.
     
  19. leon renaud
    Joined: Nov 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,936

    leon renaud
    Member
    from N.E. Ct.

    Maleable Cast is both weldable and bendable but I sure wouldn't build a sprint car with it
     
  20. aXe33
    Joined: May 7, 2008
    Posts: 130

    aXe33
    Member
    from Austin Tx

    Sounds like a guy I used to know who built a few sprint car frames out of stick welded cast iron gas pipe. Always wondered about that.[/QUOTE]

    Seems to Me quite a few airplanes were glued together this way
     
  21. fossilfish
    Joined: Dec 16, 2010
    Posts: 320

    fossilfish
    Member
    from Texas

    a properly brazed frame is plenty fine...as was stated earlier supermarine spitfires and and many other planes and racecar frames have been built that way. Basically the tubing was weaker than the brazed joints.
     
  22. DocF
    Joined: Feb 22, 2011
    Posts: 120

    DocF
    Member

    USAC, ARDC, IMCA, CSRA, Badger, UARA rules specifically stated that brazing was not permitted on a frame. That is pretty definitive.

    Some parts of World War II airplanes were brazed, but most were gas welded. When my father's service with the Army Transport Service ended, he worked at Stinson Aircraft. He brazed on Dzus tabs and other non-structural brackets.

    Doc
     
  23. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 6,084

    Marty Strode
    Member

    The only info I have, is his last name was Wallingford, he was from So. Cal.
     

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  24. Ken_Schou
    Joined: Oct 6, 2009
    Posts: 822

    Ken_Schou
    Member

    Former late model, TQ and modified driver Peggy Smith called this evening to say ...... former American Three Quarter Midget Racing Association (ATQMRA) Champion Will Ford has passed away.

    One of THE (Long Island, NY) BAD GUYS, Will (&#8220;Willie&#8221; to many) had retired to and was living in Virginia.

    Peggy will call me as she receives more information and I&#8217;ll pass it along.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012
  25. DocF
    Joined: Feb 22, 2011
    Posts: 120

    DocF
    Member

    I am sorry to hear that.

    When we were struggling to get a TQ club going in the Carolinas, many of the ATQMRA guys would come down and run with us to give us better car count. They had fun and we enjoyed racing with them.

    Doc
     
  26. Some photos I took around 2004 at the Golden Wheels tech. Where was it? Sandblasters in Marysville? Something like that. Seems like I've been in a conflict of commitments ever since.
     

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  27. Lumpy95
    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 87

    Lumpy95
    Member

    Back in the 1960's Hartman Engendering would braze the go karts together so they would flex in the corner and lift the inside front. Even then they would use 4130 steel braze it together and paint it clear coat to monitor cracks...sometimes crazy things would work. I never ran one.
     
  28. tex44
    Joined: Nov 12, 2008
    Posts: 18

    tex44
    Member

    For any of you that might be interested in a trip through history, I've posted 6 complete issues of National Auto Racing News 1940 - 1941 on Texas Open Wheel

    The only thing that I ask, if you copy any of the images or stories for use anywhere else, Please link back to TexasOpenWheel.com as these are the property of TOW.


    http://www.texasopenwheel.com//index.php?showforum=20
     
  29. DocF
    Joined: Feb 22, 2011
    Posts: 120

    DocF
    Member

    Geez, I was looking over the August 21, 1941 issue and what do I see? A column by my old departed friend Flip Fritch. As he got older, his columns needed severe editing, but they were almost as much fun as talking to Flip.

    The night that Chuck Thompson had gotten killed in the Gold Cup race on the Detroit River, I wandered down to Flat Rock, where the USAC midgets were running. I had stooged for Chuck in the past, but was spectating from the Belle Isle bridge. I lost my taste for boat racing for a long time when I saw the Gale's Roostertail disintegrate on the back stretch.

    At Flat Rock, Bob Zomerhuis, an old friend, had brought his good pink Hillegas Offy over with John Tenney driving. I was stooging for them to keep my mind busy. They had a major oil leak develop and lost the engine.

    All in all a bad day. Flip was there, by then in a wheel chair as a result of his flip at the extremely dangerous 1/2 mile Owosso, MI track. We started talking and folks kept bringing beer by. Flip, it seemed knew everyone and they wanted to share with him. I stayed there talking and drinking with him until dawn. This helped ease a very bad day for me.

    Doc
     
  30. japar
    Joined: Jun 30, 2007
    Posts: 263

    japar
    Member
    from Seekonk Ma

    Heres a shot of some migits going round and round in the ring, but I still like cage matches the best
     

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