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History Vintage "Cageless" Midget Picture Thread

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by KKx125, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    I thought it was a toy or a model in the pictures, your right it's too perfect.
    Paul
     
  2. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    Ok, teachers I have another question, when & why did the 6 pin wheels come into play vs a traditional 5 pin car wheel pattern? other then clamping force what purpose did it serve? I have only seen a handfull of 5 pin midgets in pictures including the midget I have.
    Paul
     
  3. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,167

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Model T rear axles were the most commonly used basis and the '27, I believe had a stamped steel emergency brake drum with a 6 hole pattern that was cut down in a lathe to make a wheel center to fit into, and weld onto, 12" wheel rim stock, thus producing the early 12" six pin steel wheels.

    Some used two cut drums stacked together to produce a stronger rear wheel, it weighed about 25 pounds!

    When you think about clamping force, remember the midget wheels of a few years ago that used only three of the six lugs to mount wheels.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 28, 2012
  4. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    one of the guys I met along the way looking for parts has piles of model T drums in his garage from his father. he was told the sa,e thing, that the drums were used to make wheels for the midgets!

    Paul
     
  5. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    i am looking for any info, history or pic's of 2 guys that were friends of my uncle that raced midgets in the 50's. One was a fellow racer named carl miller and the other was a chassis builder named charlie stevens from willow grove pa?

    Paul
     
  6. wynns #1
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 206

    wynns #1
    Member

    Hi Shadow,
    Carl Miller passed away about 30 years ago. He usually drove his V8 60s against the more powerful Offys with good results. He got more out of "very little" than anyone I knew. His son, Carl Jr.(Midge) had a very successful midget career and is still driving his sprint car in URC. He is the tech. inspector too.
     
  7. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,194

    Jim Nise
    Member

    Charlie Stevens had a shop in Ambler, outside Philadelphia. It was not Ken Hickey clean, but he did lots of things in the late 50's early 60's. He was involved with a Scorpion, I believe some sort of sports car. Was probably a poor racers Scarab.

    Carl hung around for a long time. I remember him being interviewed by Bill Singer prior to the Trenton 300 midget race. He said his only concern was "fuel and tires". we used to call him old fuel and tires after that.

    He and Dick Mealy were good racing buddies.
     
  8. Flubyu
    Joined: Nov 15, 2011
    Posts: 66

    Flubyu
    Member

    Stan Muir 1948 Washington State champion
     

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  9. Flubyu
    Joined: Nov 15, 2011
    Posts: 66

    Flubyu
    Member

    Stan Muir's ride 10 years later owned this time by Mike Ogden piloted by Cliff Spaulding, look at the front bumper still wearing the Muir's M.
     

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  10. DocF
    Joined: Feb 22, 2011
    Posts: 120

    DocF
    Member

    Yes, the most likely source of the 6 pin hub pattern is from the use of the brake centers from Model Ts for wheel centers. Also, many early midgets used the Model T dishpan brakes, at least on the rear.

    I know that Joe Short, my old friend and neighbor in Grand Rapids, had the Model T dishpans on the rear of his rail frame V8-60. The front brakes were from a Nash. This was a pretty decent car even into the mid 60s. His usual drivers were Tom Hovey and Les Lemon.

    Doc
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  11. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    do any of you know if anyone is re-popping cast midget front grills?
     
  12. memaerobilia
    Joined: Mar 24, 2004
    Posts: 191

    memaerobilia
    Member

    QUOTE=slobitz;7392554]Joe,This beauty is now on display at EMMR. You folks did some great work.<O:p</O:p
    You are right about the found condition of this car, it was just pieces that looked like an old TQ. I saw it at Carlisle and thought it was beyond restoration.<O:p</O:p
    You lucked out having your dad. He taught you a hell of a lot about these early cars. I was lucky to have known him. He was always kind and helpful to me.[/QUOTE]

    <O:p</O:pThanks for the priceless sentiments Stan. They mean the world to me.

    <O:pHere is another car that came to us, as a basket case. Owners were Bill Singer and his partner Jim, who brought us 3 or 4 cars over the years. Funny the things you remember... About THIS car, I especially remember all the time I spent filing and sanding the letter "S" we made (for Singer) for the front bumper. I also remember Bill and Jim buying a KK that had won a "modern" feature, with a fuel-injected Falcon engine in it, in Indianapolis on a Saturday night,(in the '80's) then loading it up and delivering it to us on L.I. on Monday to put a V-8 60 back in it, and Back-dating the features on the car to original KK style. That is Bill sitting in this original roadster, behind our Riverhead shop, when we made a car out of his project and just before paint & upholstery & chroming.... The last photo of the rear-view, clearly shows the off-set. Nice "Indy style" external sidemount oil-tank, too.<O:p</O:p

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Ken_Schou
    Joined: Oct 6, 2009
    Posts: 822

    Ken_Schou
    Member

    CARL MILLER ....

    Posted by Buildy on 11-15-2009, page #20 of this thread, posting #382.
    More than likely at Hinchliffe Stadium, in Paterson, NJ..

    [​IMG]
     
  14. sideways27
    Joined: Jan 4, 2009
    Posts: 285

    sideways27
    Member

    Yes, What are you looking for? Kurtis, Hillegass, Edmonds, CAE? Let me know and I will set you up with the man.
     
  15. doctordarryl
    Joined: Apr 14, 2011
    Posts: 17

    doctordarryl
    Member
    from NJ

    Latest build of the Revell KK midget. The Schafer Gear Works Offy (note correct spelling of the company name). As usual, lots of scratch built parts. Airbrushed with Tamiya Pure White. Decals from Scale Auto Details. This is the first Offy midget with carbs that i have built. Love these kits!
     

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  16. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    I sent this pic to my uncle and he said he remembered carl miller driving a black #4 at one time as well?
    Paul
     
  17. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,167

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Quiet time of the year, just watched my Christmas present DVD, &#8220;Touched by an Angell&#8221; for the second time.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com: /><o:p> </o:p>
    This is not a racing film. It is the History and Story of the race track at Sun Prairie, WI, that started over 100 years ago with Harness Racing. Owned and operated by the Sun Prairie Volunteer Fire Department, it was the only place in the world that was running a weekly midget racing series up until the end of 2009, and had been since 1947.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Extensive recollections and observations on camera of old drivers and owners such as Kevin Olson, Billy Engelhart, Bob Clements, Al Fredenburg, Jerry Hardy, Dean Erfurth, and current drivers Brandon Waelti and Courtney Erfurth. There are sections on track surface preparation, the safety crew, and the history of the Pavilion.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Plenty of Vintage racing and modern footage including some wonderful aerial shots.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Jeff Gordon telling about his start in midgets and talking about Rich Vogler.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Should be available at racing book outlets.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    The story of how it was filmed and the unlikely producer Bob Leff, can be found here.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    http://sunprairiestar.com/main.asp?SectionID=4&SubSectionID=129&ArticleID=6600
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  18. kholm65
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 145

    kholm65
    Member
    from NY

    King Carpenter & Ronnie Evans at Thompson
     

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  19. monkaz
    Joined: Oct 6, 2011
    Posts: 203

    monkaz
    Member
    from gilbert,AZ

    Danbury Racearena ARDC action from 1957.
    Len Duncan#9 races wheel to wheel with Bobby Marshman#7 followed by Tony Romit#2, Roger Bailey#18 wheel to wheel with Bobby Boone#24 followed by Ernie McCoy #29,Chuck Arnold (black helmet), Johnny Mann, Bill Randall#83, Russ Klar#4, Dutch Schaefer and Tony Bonadies in the #9 Tassi Vatis roadster.
     

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  20. tractorguy
    Joined: Jan 5, 2008
    Posts: 693

    tractorguy
    Member

    28Dreyer......thanks for the heads up on this video. Since moving to Wisconsin over 12yrs ago, I have been living just west of Milwaukee and have been very lucky to be 50min. from the great Sun night racing at Sun Prairie. What a great place to show up early.....get in the infield pit area .....look at the cars.....enjoy the people......and then go to the primative wooden plank seats for the races.
    Good cold beer.....great racetrack food and great people in the crowd.....and one other thing......great open wheel RACING.

    Over the years, I have taken several of my friends who are casual race fans to Sun Prairie. They all come away with a distinct understanding of the differance between their usual NASCAR "entertainment"......and true dirt track open wheel RACING.
     
  21. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,194

    Jim Nise
    Member

    Monkaz, interesting that Marshman's Hespell car has a K in the nerf bar, and Boone in the Brenn has an M.

    I thought the Brenn car was Ritter's.

    ????
     
  22. monkaz
    Joined: Oct 6, 2011
    Posts: 203

    monkaz
    Member
    from gilbert,AZ

    The #24 Brenn car was the Johnny Ritter Offy: the "M" is puzzling.
    The "K" in the #7 Hespell Offy designates this car as the former # 17 Kernan Offy driven by Russ Klar and Freddie Meeker.
     
  23. monkaz
    Joined: Oct 6, 2011
    Posts: 203

    monkaz
    Member
    from gilbert,AZ

    Jim,

    You are absolutely right about the Ritter Offy, as this picture clearly shows, Johnny Ritter's car had an "R" in the front pusher. The "M" must have been added by Ray Gilliland, the second owner, or Ken Brenn.
     

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  24. TommyA19
    Joined: Dec 3, 2010
    Posts: 240

    TommyA19
    Member

    If one looks close at the Ritter photo, you can see it it not just an "R" on the front bumper, but a "JR" together.
     
  25. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,194

    Jim Nise
    Member

  26. the shadow
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,105

    the shadow
    Member

    Are you sure that pic is from 1957? Do you know when in 1957
    (what month) I am looking for more ARDC points race photo's from the 1957 season.
    Paul
     
  27. Jim Nise
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,194

    Jim Nise
    Member

    Looks like 1957 to me.
     
  28. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,783

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Saw this Sunday at the San Diego Automotive Museum and remembered this thread.
     

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  29. Bob Coutts
    Joined: Dec 6, 2008
    Posts: 24

    Bob Coutts
    Member

    I have A lot of information on the Muir Bros. as I hung around there shop when I was 12yrs. old. I stayed friends with them until the died. You can call me at 503-504-0747 any time and I can help you with pictures and history.
     
  30. Bob Coutts
    Joined: Dec 6, 2008
    Posts: 24

    Bob Coutts
    Member

    This car is not a Kertis as this car was built in the winter of 49-50 off of Stans kertis which was #60 that he bought in 48. Stans car was sold to sombody in Arizona for $3500 in1963 when Stan died.
     

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