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Hot Rods VIN rivets

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Fortunateson, Jun 27, 2016.

  1. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 10,910

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Prior to my retirement from the new car business, we occasionally had cause to replace dashboards under warranty. The VIN tags were riveted to the dash, not the body structure. The process required ordering a new dash, requisitioning two rosette rivets (akin to a "controlled substance") from the Chrysler Zone Office, contacting nearest State Police District Office and arranging an appointment for an Officer to come to the dealership and witness the dash and VIN tag R&R.

    Draw your own conclusions as to how seriously this procedure was viewed........

    Ray
     
  2. jcmarz
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 4,636

    jcmarz
    Member
    from Chino, Ca

    gas & guns and C. John Stutzer like this.
  3. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 10,910

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    ^^^^^^^^I agree with this........in regard to the OP's question. These rivets, and the tags they hold on, are not in the same category as 'serial/VIN number" plates, in my opinion.

    Not all body tags are created equal.......

    Ray
     
  4. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    The OP asked about VIN rivets....so we assume he's planning to remove an important number from the car, and replace it.
     
  5. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 2,810

    oldolds
    Member

    Last time I read the federal statute is read, removal of the vehicle identification plate was a criminal offense when removed with the "attempt to defraud". There are ways to deal with it correctly. Many restored cars it is removed to do a restoration. I think most are don't as don't tell.

    I have watched thousands of cars get vin checked at classic car auctions. It is interesting to watch what makes a vin inspector go crazy checking out a car. I would guess, after the extra inspection needed to make them happy, 95% of those cars are cleared.
     
    Larry T likes this.
  6. Is that anything like with the tags on mattresses?
     
  7. I've seen some of those car shows... that we all admit that we don't watch... and I've seen finished cars with the vin plate held on with screws. Back in the day, I knew a "tag job" specialist that could swap one cleanly, he's no longer with us. He had this box of tools to do all the rivet setting, no idea where he got the rivets from.
     
  8. RR
    Joined: Nov 30, 2008
    Posts: 90

    RR
    Member

    Well around here I have a hard time believing that the DMV folks could really care. Now if you went in to the office and interfered with their lunch- that is a whole other issue! Seriously, unless you sell the car or are suspected of stealing or chopping cars, I doubt anyone even looks at it. I don't think that even when a car is sold the DMV goes all CSI on the rivets doing Carbon 14 analysis to verify age and microscopic tests to verify the correct anvil and punch marks. If it makes you sleep better at night, talk to the local DMV or highway patrol about it. If you don't care- buy some rivets off of Ebay and get to work.
     
    unkledaddy likes this.
  9. unkledaddy
    Joined: Jul 21, 2006
    Posts: 2,860

    unkledaddy
    Member

    Has any HAMBER ever been prosecuted for a VIN tag infraction?
     
    gas & guns likes this.
  10. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 10,910

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Probably few (honest) people have encountered any problems with this subject under the normal course of living. It's when things aren't 'normal', i.e., an insurance claim, your car is stolen, or sold in some State where these things come under scrutiny, that problems may arise. And any of those scenarios ARE NOT the best time to be called on it.

    Most events attributed to 'bad luck' have nothing to do with 'luck'......they are mostly preventable with some forethought. Likewise, 'good luck' is said to be when "opportunity meets preparedness".

    Ray
     
  11. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,675

    Larry T
    Member

    I used to get a visit from the Texas DPS Theft Division officer whenever he was in town. He'd come in a check all the bikes I was working on (mostly chopped Harleys) for altered numbers, anti theft numbers and such. He was never very interested in tags and plates, just stamped numbers.
     
  12. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 23,752

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    reminder, VIN first used in 1954. if for some reason you need to remove a tag using the correct style of rivets to reinstall the tag will likely help not bring attention to such action. one reason tags may need to be removed is when a body is sand blasted
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  13. not that one guy
    Joined: Mar 28, 2011
    Posts: 276

    not that one guy
    Member
    from So NV

    Is the Vehicle already titled and registered to you?
    Is this plate the actual VIN or just a data plate?
    Will it need a VIN inspection?

    I almost had a very bad day at the DMV. I brought my 50 from California to Nevada. My truck is registered and titled by the door post data plate (most are by engine number). Data plate was painted over and held on by screws. Most trucks data plates were held on by rivets, but Oakland assembly plant 1950 trucks used screws.


    The inspector at DMV saw the screws and put a stop to my registration. I had title, and the old Cali registration in hand. I explained the truck had been in my family for 40 years.

    He finally sent a supervisor over and after some time I got my truck registered and titled to me.

    I now suggest to anyone to get your vehicle/project titled and registered including V.I.N. inspection before you invest or start you project.


    None of this may apply to you, but you did mention you had "proper documentation"
     
    mkebaird likes this.
  14. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,564

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yep I sent the original chassis off from the Austin to be blasted and did not realize it had an aluminum VIN tag on it. When it came back and I was inspecting it I saw what was left of the tag (blasted clean). Later I discovered it was the only one on the entire car!
     
  15. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 5,864

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Starting in the mid fifties, GM started using a stainless/chromium (I believe that's what they were-someone will jump in if I'm not correct) VIN tags SPOT WELDED to the A-pillar. With the dissimilar metals of the tag and A-pillar, and RUST, the tags would fall off. Many of the Tri-Five car guys have had to deal with a lost tag. In doing restorations, many of them get epoxied back on. The guys who drilled and riveted or screwed them back on, had to deal with the issues that brought when they sold the car or moved to another state. I've never known anyone who was even arrested for it, let alone jailed/imprisoned. Corvettes of the time had the VIN tags attached with sheet metal screws! It boils down to "INTENT". The only person I ever heard of getting into any kind of trouble was Boyd Coddington, and that was a little different situation than involved fraud, and NO jail time. This whole VIN tag issue comes up every year or two on the HAMB; Deja Vu all over again. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  16. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    Chevy had screws holding the tags on thru 1950, went to spot welds in 1951, from what I've seen.

    As you allude, making it look like it has not ever been messed with is a good plan. Shiny new rivets don't do that so well.
     
  17. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,675

    Larry T
    Member

    Since we're starting to drift a little bit, I thought mid 50 Chevys were still titled by the engine number, which is different from the body number on the A pillar. Yep, I know of a lot of Chevys titled by the body numbers now.

    Fords were registered by the ID number stamped into the frame.

    This is from a Texas title office when I was working on registering my 56 Ford pickup.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  18. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    The state's rules determined whether it was title with the engine or body serial number (or both). They were not all the same rules, 48 different states, you know.
     
    Hnstray and Larry T like this.
  19. Paint
    Joined: Nov 18, 2005
    Posts: 297

    Paint
    Member

    In about 1979 I stopped to look at a really clean 1960 Impala on the side of the road for 500 bucks.
    I went to the house to inquire and the guy said it had no VIN tag and no title.
    Then I noticed the 1960 Corvette sitting in the garage.
     
  20. Black Panther
    Joined: Jan 6, 2010
    Posts: 1,490

    Black Panther
    Member
    from SoCal

    Paint....you could probably get away with that shit in the 70s....but not for long nowadays. The vin number on a 60 Impala and Corvette are totally different...not to mention the Impala was a coupe or sedan...and the Corvette was a convertible...that is just asking for trouble..
     
  21. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,612

    Fortunateson
    Member

    I like how you think.
     
  22. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,612

    Fortunateson
    Member

    I found some rivets. Seem simple to install. I have the original tag, I will document, it is registered to me, and I will check out our local Motor Vehichle Branch. I'm thinking that the rules up here in BC are more practical than some of the states where you guys seem to have a harder time. The mere replacing an original rage with new rivets without intent to defraud should not be illegal. However, a law that states that by merely taking a vin tag off or affixing a vin tag is somehow illegal sounds like an unjust law.
     
  23. partsdawg
    Joined: Feb 12, 2006
    Posts: 2,502

    partsdawg
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Minnesota

    "However, a law that states that by merely taking a vin tag off or affixing a vin tag is somehow illegal sounds like an unjust law."
    Ask the guy who bought a 440 GTX that originally was a 318 Satellite if he thinks the law is unjust.
    My business partner has been a expert witness in criminal cases regarding re-badged muscle cars.
    Not everyone is doing what you are.There are hucksters out there.
     
  24. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,675

    Larry T
    Member

    That would come under "intent to defraud".
     
  25. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,536

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    When it come to most things automotive, in most states, the "intent to defraud" is standard operating procedure. Guilty until proven innocent. Many of those states are willing to accept additional fees in exchange for helping you prove your innocent.

    I'm sure the OP could arrange a LEO or a DMV officer to witness the exchanging of the Vin from its old location to the new location and probably get a nice printed form stating the verified completely legal procedure has been completed and has been officially witnessed, for a fee. Gene
     
  26. ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  27. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 3,873

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    The dash is, of course, where the airbags live. Things are beginning to make sense.
     
    tb33anda3rd likes this.
  28. Paint
    Joined: Nov 18, 2005
    Posts: 297

    Paint
    Member

    I agree, here in Michigan the title only says 2 door or 4 door.It was probably many years later that someone discovered what was up with that Corvette.
     
  29. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 10,910

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Yes, sorry......colloquial terms differ......meant dashboard or, more correctly, 'instrument panel assembly'........a really massive piece on modern vehicles.

    Ray
     
  30. My '59 Ford also has the VIN information on the chassis, lots of Fords evidently did. I'm not at all sure how far it went back or if and when it was required by law. New cars have them everywhere to deter using stolen parts.
     

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