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Hot Rods Valves romancing pistons, problem solved

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by vtx1800, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. Old TFFdriver
    Joined: Jan 14, 2016
    Posts: 191

    Old TFFdriver
    Member
    from California

    Hey bud do not beat yourself up. I have been there done that. ;)That is why I had to ask. Write it off as a learning experience. If you need help send me a message. :)
     
    vtx1800 likes this.
  2. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,263

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Did the Howard's tech advise which way to possibly 'roll' the cam? (adv. or ret.)
    I understand with Howard Johansen's son commanding the biz they run a tight ship.
    Last time I called with a 'Howard's question' they didn't hang up 'til they found the spec on an OLD sheet! (Howard's M-14)
    True example of a longtime professional company!
     
  3. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    retard, Advance opens intake earlier, closes intake valve/piston clearance. On howards, they have some good looking profiles these days, I plan to try one in my cleveland.
     
  4. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,476

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    After the change to 2.02 valves, do the valves set down into the seats or are they farther toward the piston than the exhaust? Grinding the seats deeper could help.
     
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  5. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,304

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    his picture, shows it to be, (not) set high and not sunk in....
    from the point of view it looks ok to me...
    but you are correct in your thought about the valve...
    as the 2.02 would need a bit more grinding to set in
    to the correct position, it will and can still function , where its at.

    like when all done and flip the head over ... set a straight edge across ALL
    the valves and ( it is prefered ) to have them ALL even...



    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
  6. vtx1800
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,084

    vtx1800
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This morning my neighbor/friend/expert came over and we degree'd the cam, it is maybe off a degree at most, it appears that I will have to clearance the pistons, so.....I will start and try to make tooling myself to do so, wish me luck.
     
  7. D.N.D.
    Joined: Aug 15, 2012
    Posts: 1,385

    D.N.D.
    Member Emeritus

    Did you check your valve to piston clearance as you need to know what you have ?
     
  8. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,678

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Now that Beano and George have gotten into this thread, I guess it's time for my 2 cents, LOL.
    Unless you want to tear down the whole engine and start over about the best thing you can do is to make or buy the proper tool to cut deeper valve reliefs. Sinking the valves in the head will hurt your engine's breathing.
    The mistakes in this build started very early if your deck clearances are .030-to .045 " down in the hole @ TDC. You want a zero deck clearance on sbc, then use the Fel Pro gaskets with .041 compressed thickness, then using fully pumped up lifters and an old used set of already compressed gaskets and the light springs and dial indicator and degree wheel, start about 30* before TDC, and check every 10* for clearance.
    Assuming the quoted deck clearance you specify is down in the hole, you'll have a hard time getting your "quench" @ TDC to help with detonation, even with very thin head gaskets that will exacerbate your valve clearance problems.
    The choice is yours, do a "band aid" job by deepening the valve recesses in the pistons, or tear it all down and start over with a proper deck height. Then when you get that right, work on valve reliefs in a mill before final assembly.
    This will mean a mock up assembly using tape on piston skirts to square them in the bore, installing rod and piston assemblies in the block, along with crank of course, setting up a valve train to test clearances, then take back apart for machining to correct clearance
    Agreed this is a lot of work, but worth it in the long run..
     
  9. vtx1800
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,084

    vtx1800
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Don, I have zero intake valve clearance in all cylinders, some just touched "more" than others. Since I am no engine builder (and anybody reading this probably figured that out) I didn't realize that I should have zero or close to it, deck height, but......I am not building a race car, just trying to make the darn thing run again like it did back in the 80's. I am amazed to see all of the knowledge that's available here. My five year old grand daughter likes to ride in it (because she doesn't have to sit in the back seat) and I'd like to take her for another ride:)
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  10. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I have clearanced pistons with a die grinder a few times...:eek::D
     
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  11. Old TFFdriver
    Joined: Jan 14, 2016
    Posts: 191

    Old TFFdriver
    Member
    from California

    Been there done that. At the the track with the shop vac going and pistons still in the bores !
     
  12. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 6,861

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Me too. Seems though I recall glueing a 36 grit disc on a valve, plopping the head on and spinning it with a drill. That was a motorcycle engine though with 2 cylinders.
     
    Skankin' Rat Fink and volvobrynk like this.
  13. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I put a heavy crescent of grease around the top of the piston at the cylinder wall interface, and clean up CAREFULLY, its a bit crude, but gets 'er done! Shop vac is a good idea, if i ever have to do it again, maybe I will combine both methods.
     
    Old TFFdriver likes this.
  14. Old TFFdriver
    Joined: Jan 14, 2016
    Posts: 191

    Old TFFdriver
    Member
    from California

    X 2 !
     
  15. BadgeZ28
    Joined: Oct 28, 2009
    Posts: 1,063

    BadgeZ28
    Member
    from Oregon

    Sorry you ran into the problems. Be sure to not leave any rough surfaces after your do the relieving job. Takes some emory cloth and smooth the area you worked on. You could also use a sanding cylinder from a DIY porting kit to smooth things out. Good luck with your mods.
     
  16. D.N.D.
    Joined: Aug 15, 2012
    Posts: 1,385

    D.N.D.
    Member Emeritus

    You need tapered cartridge rolls to get into the small areas
     
    34 Deluxe likes this.
  17. Imperial Kustom
    Joined: Dec 20, 2007
    Posts: 269

    Imperial Kustom
    Member

    It has not been mentioned yet, and I am sure that it is not your entire problem, but on those old style pistons the valve reliefs were designed to fit a 1.94 valve so a 2.02 gets mighty tight to the radii of said relief.
     
  18. D.N.D.
    Joined: Aug 15, 2012
    Posts: 1,385

    D.N.D.
    Member Emeritus

    Yep you are right Imperial plus they might be a bit thin for cutting much out of the piston tops ?
     
  19. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,678

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Agree the valve reliefs can be done with a die grinder, but you just might be able to do a better job with less removal of metal with the Isky tool or similar.
    All the stuff I talked about on deck cleance, etc. is stuff that should be done on any engine that is built for more power than stock, IMO. The proper deck clearance gives a good "Quench" or "squish" area and gives the mixture a twirl of turbulence at point of ignition that helps reduce detonation. It's known as the "Ricardo " principle and was developed in the 20s and 30s.
     
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  20. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,132

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    Before I went clearancing anything, I would first degree the cam to see where the cam is actually at first and go from there, it could be as simple as a bad timing set and the cam is just advanced a bunch or even ground way off of spec. That doesnt seem to be that big of a cam to be doing that.
     
  21. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,678

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Perhaps you missed it in an earlier post, but the OP has had a friend and advisor to check and he said the cam is maybe off 1 degree, which is hardly enough to cause any problem if that is correct.
     
    Old TFFdriver likes this.
  22. vtx1800
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,084

    vtx1800
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'd been thinking the same thing, these pistons came in an engine that was in a 62 Impala hardtop, that I got prior to 1985 (probably 83 or 84), the damper was loose which may have caused some noise that frightened the owner, when I disassembled the motor the hone marks were still in the cylinder bores. I found later that the block was cracked, I'd picked the car up in the winter and evidently they had not put antifreeze in. I got the car free, the guy that owned it was going in the Army and the Army recruiter told me the "cruit" had given it to him and he couldn't pick it up, I think I even got the title. The pistons and heads are all that is left of that car that I own.
     
  23. Old TFFdriver
    Joined: Jan 14, 2016
    Posts: 191

    Old TFFdriver
    Member
    from California

    From the looks of the posted pictures there is two problems to this romance.

    One the valves are bigger than the reliefs to start with and the reliefs are not deep enough.

    JMO

    Open reliefs to accommodate the valve size and then adjust the depth of the reliefs.

    Again just me and the pictures provided.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  24. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,678

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I agree, on both counts.
     
  25. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,304

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    thicker gaskets ...




    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  26. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,132

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    Oops! My bad I did miss that. Carry on.
     
  27. D.N.D.
    Joined: Aug 15, 2012
    Posts: 1,385

    D.N.D.
    Member Emeritus

    If you go to a shorter pushrod it is still going to open the valve just as far , since it is just moving the amount of the cam lobe lift that does not change

    Plus you have to lower the rocker on the stud and it might bottom out like the rocker hitting the retainer
     
    vtx1800 likes this.
  28. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,138

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Shorter pushrods will do nothing to remedy this.
     
  29. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,304

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    abc... ya thanks for pointing that out...
    head in the cloud ( WRONG FIX )
    on this problem
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  30. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,476

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    I knew an old builder who made his own fly cutters out of used valves. For the 2.02 he would use a slightly larger valve turned down to a few thousandths larger. Then he ground 2 cutting edges into it, put it in the head without springs, bolted the head on, installed a stop on the valve shaft, connected a shop vac to the exhaust port and used a drill to turn the valve to cut the relief. He said this way made certain that the cuts were exactly where they needed to be.
     

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