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Technical Using old axles with New Factory Rebuilt 3rd Member

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by crusin55, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    I have a '34 Ford with a 9" rear. I plan on buying a new Rebuilt 3rd Member from a reputable shop. My question...If I put in the rebuilt 3rd member, can I use my old 28 spline axles without getting a whine or any type of noises accelerating and decelerating?
    The 3rd member will have all new Ring/Pinion, Yoke, Bearings and etc. The old axles have who knows how many miles.
    Never attempted this before so I'm trying to get all the knowledge possible.
    Thanks to all for a response.
     
  2. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,401

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

    No problem, just install new axle bearings and seals. 9" bearings have their own race, no erosion of axle.
     
  3. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    Thank you for your feedback on the bearing race. What about the old splined axle shaft fitting into the new 3rd member? Is there going to be slop which would cause noise. I'm assuming the end of the old splined axle shaft must have some type of wear.
    Never done this before so trying to gather all information I can before I start this project.
     
  4. There's really no issue there, to a point. You should be fine if the axles have seen only normal highway use. Unless you have tons of horse power that twisted the those 28 splines into a candy cane spiral, run it.
     
    Motorjones likes this.
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  5. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    Been under my '34 Ford for the past 27 years and has been used for normal highway use. It was in the car when I bought it so I'm assuming it was a junk yard find when it was installed. The Motor was a junk yard find and rebuilt. I personally know the man that built it and he was not a hot rodder or heavy footed motorhead.
    I have since replace the motor with a 350-265 h.p. crate motor about 10 years ago.
    It has always had slop or clunk when I put it in gear and when I let off it and when you get back into it. It recently is making kinda like a clicking noise when you let off and are coasting.
     
  6. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 8,157

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    Plenty of car owners have updated the 3rd member and run the OEM axles, unless abused they should be fine. With most rear end swaps owners replaced the bearings, seals and brakes only. That noise most likely won't be there once you swap centres as it will be a new setup with nothing worn.
     
  7. geoford41
    Joined: Jul 26, 2011
    Posts: 478

    geoford41
    Member
    from Delaware

    If you look at Jegs, Speedway or Summit they sell replacement "cut to fit" 28/31 spline axles for 9" ford rears (Big or small bearing I believe) with bearings running $116 to $150 each so if you have any concerns its no to out of reach to buy new from these guy. i think Jegs & Summit are free freight. I would do what a few of the guys suggest New bears & seals and go!
     
    hipster likes this.
  8. DualQuad55
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,379

    DualQuad55
    Member
    from Epsom, NH

    The clunk on accel is likely from excessive clearance of the pinion to the ring gear. This could be due to bearing depth not set properly, loose pinion nut, worn bearings or worn gear set. The clicking may be coming from one of the universal joints on the drive shaft Make sure to check them for slop as well as binding. replace or have replaced if at all suspect.
    The axles should not have any real wear if driven normally even if for 30 years. I doubt you have 200k miles on them.
     
  9. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    I have a rebuilt 3rd member done by a well know builder in the midwest. I put the new rebuilt open carrier 3rd member with Motive Gears and bearings in and with the driveshaft disconnected, car on jack stands, with tires on and you spin either tire you hear a clicking noise. I took a video and sent it to the builder. They said it was the Spider Gears and they only come into play when you go around a corner. They also sent me a video with the clicking spider gears. Is this normal for the clicking with both wheels off the ground and the driveshaft disconnected?

    I test drove it and it is very noisy going up to 60 mph. Let off and it is real noisy slowing down to about 20 mph. It sounds to me like I can faintly hear the clicking going up and coming down along with noisy gears.

    They told me I had to drive it 1000.0 miles before the gears and bearings were completely broken in. WHAT?????

    This is Kool!!!!.JPG This Was Simple!!!.JPG
    Pictures of the fixture I made to pull it by myself. I used a transmission jack, bolted on a 5/8" piece of plywood, 12" piece of 3/4" pipe and a pipe flange. My yoke bolted onto the pipe using the yoke clamps. Put the whole setup on a sturdy 8' table and used my lift.

    Took about 30 seconds to pull it with no effort. Just roll the jack towards you. Took a little longer to put it back in because it has to go in perfect on the 10 studs sticking out of the housing.

    Worked great!!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  10. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 6,448

    krylon32
    Alliance Vendor
    from Nebraska

    Sounds like the rebuilder is BSing you to me. A properly set up open 9 inch rear gear shouldn't click or howl at any speed. I've had posi rears sometimes click going around corners especially if there was no posi additive used. You'll sure know in a 1000 miles. I've never had one get quieter.
     
    metlmunchr likes this.
  11. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,401

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

    Yea spiders do make a subtle clicking when turning one axle with an open diff. Shouldn't be doing it if it has a limited slip with no load and both wheels going the same speed. Also shouldn't be howling while going down the road. Might have set the pinion depth wrong or poorly machined gear set. Never seen noise go away either, no matter how much break in there is.
     
  12. DualQuad55
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,379

    DualQuad55
    Member
    from Epsom, NH

    Very slight clicking is common with spider gears as the clearances are looser than you'd think. But not real noisy at all.
    Whining is either ring and pinion back lash/depth or bearings. I have not done motive gears, but I did a set of Yukon gears (customer supplied) a few years back which stated 'do not worry about pinion depth for noise. these (street) gears will be noisy' I had never seen such a statement in directions before, I actually took the time to show the vehicle owner before proceding to install the gear set. They were a little noisy but not too bad. However, that made me think that Yukon gears would not be something I would order in the future.
     
  13. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 3,881

    indyjps
    Member

    What gear ratio are you running, is this an open rear, Trac Loc, Locker?
     
  14. yruhot
    Joined: Dec 17, 2009
    Posts: 564

    yruhot
    Member

    I would thing a reputable builder would be able to offer more than drive it for 1000 miles. Ive got a 9inch in my 55 chevy with a spool and moser axles, worked great out of the box no howling no clicks or anything just screaming tires with the 456 gears.lol, something doesnt seem right.
     
  15. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 2,172

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Never any noise from a correctly set up rear . Spiders do make noise , nothing car be heard when oil is in the housing . In correct , side ( backlash ) I would say is your issue . Only problem is once the gears , take a "set" and make noise it is almost impossible to readjust to stop the whining . Gears are basically done , they will last a long time , but noise will always be there to deal with
     
  16. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    Dual Quad55: I am running Motive Gears 3:00 ratio with an Open Carrier in my '34 Ford Street Rod. The rebuilt unit was ordered from a builder in the midwest. I have been in touch numerous times and they assured me that it is set up to specs with the proper tools. If I'm not satisified with the noise after 1000.0 miles, they will issue a call tag and check them over. If everything is within specs and no faulty parts, all shipping to them and back to me will be on me (bummer).

    I'm leaning towards a poorly machined gear set!!!

    From reading your post it sounds like you might own a shop that rebuilds 3rd members from time to time. Do you recommend any particular street gear sets that will be reasonably quiet when installed properly?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  17. DualQuad55
    Joined: Mar 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,379

    DualQuad55
    Member
    from Epsom, NH

    I do not own a shop. I am a mechanic who has over the years done quite a few gear changes/rebuilds.

    In general, DeathrowDave is correct that a properly set up gear set (with good bearings) will not make noise. However, if the tolerances of a gear set are poor, or bearings are no good you could end up with a noise no matter how carefully you set up the gear set.

    I worked at a shop where we had a few rears make noise due to cheap pinion bearings from China from a local parts house.. the gears were not the issue. We ended up changing out 2-3 bearing sets to Timken bearings and no noise.


    Honestly, even the Yukon gears that I installed at my home garage were not all that noisy, I was just shocked that in the instructions they said just to use the original shims under the pinion gear and not to worry about getting fussy as most of their gears will be noisy. This shows me that they have loose tolerances when machining.

    Typically if I need to order gears, I order from John Gevo in New York. He runs Gevo's rears and gears.
    I have been doing business with him for about 20 yrs and he is always honest and fair. Geat sets are expensive, so trying to save a buck but getting poor quality stuff always costs so much more. I want honest and fair pricing, not the absolute cheapest.

    I almost wonder if you dont have a bearing problem, hard to say without actually hearing the noise. But if it is the same going up or down in speed, it sure could be the gear set.

    If you are dealing with the company, ask them what you could/should do to reduce the noise. If they supplied the gears and bearings, it is on them to make it right. The noise wont go away after 1000 miles, you may just learn to deal with it. They can check depth and back lash all day, but if the set isn't matched properly or if the bearings are noisy it wont show on measurements.

    Unfortunately, I dont know how to check the bearings without driving the car unless the bearings are absolutely junk. But this is unlikely if new bearings are installed and such few miles. But, if they really over torqued the bearings, even if they 'relieved' the pressure could cause a concern. I cant say they did anything wrong without seeing any evidence, just trying to give some ideas.

    I have installed many faulty parts over the years, unfortunately with a rear gear set you can't hear them until installed and driving a car, something this shop couldnt do here.

    I can only hope you and the shop can get this settled without any bad blood. I believe most shops are honest and try to do the right thing. Most of us do this because we love it, not just to screw people out of their hard earned money. I am sure this is the case with the shop you are using.
     
  18. flatjack
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 893

    flatjack
    Member

    Your noise sounds more like bad u-joints to me.
     
  19. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    Joe: Thank you for your lengthy explanation on setting up the 3rd member and possible causes for the noise. You have put my mind at ease about sending it back. It would be very costly to ship a 70# box U.P.S. from Florida to the midwest. At this point I feel that I'm going to have to live with it. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said if the noise is constant going up and down in speed it could be a mismatched set or poor quality gears. It is much louder coming down as I believe the engine noise with a set of old school Smithy mufflers helps cover up the noise when going up. Holding it at a steady speed under 60 mph is acceptable. If I get above 60 mph it gets louder and louder.

    I've learned one thing and that is, in the future, I will never deal with a shop that is over 1500 miles away from my home. The nearest shop from me is about 100 miles away. I could at least take it to them so they can test drive and diagnose any problems.

    Another option I have is that I still have my original 9" 3rd member. I could take it to a reputable shop and have them build it. I can install it and go from there. Problem is.....it's going to cost me another $500.00 or more if I go to better quality gears as you suggested.

    Have a great week~~~~~~~~~~~Ron
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  20. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    New joints and drive shaft balanced.
     
  21. Mdbtyhtr
    Joined: Feb 12, 2013
    Posts: 13

    Mdbtyhtr
    Member

    Roush Yates Racing sells NASCAR Take outs. These are modular iron cases with a locker. The locker spring is heavy and you will have clicking or tire chirp on cornering, but that is a given with a racing rear. Mine was out of a Daytona car and is a 3.45:1 ratio. You have to buy after Daytona or Taladega for a street ratio as the rest of the tracks have ratios in the 6.00 to 6.30 range. Mine cost $850 and I am very happy with it.
     
  22. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,722

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    Motive gears are known to be noisy. Jeep guys run them because they are cheap. You can't hear the gear whine over the tires anyway.
     
  23. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    You're absolutely right............Found it out too late after installation while trying to find out why they were so noisy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  24. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 46,447

    squirrel
    Member

    $500 you could buy all the tools and equipment you need (including a press) to set up gears yourself....it's not rocket surgery.

    I haven't installed a set of new gears in a Ford rear for a long long time. I like old used Ford gears. You can find them on ebay.
     
  25. metlmunchr
    Joined: Jan 16, 2010
    Posts: 744

    metlmunchr
    Member

    35 bucks will get you a dial indicator and magnetic base from Enco. Plenty adequate to check backlash. Pull it and check the pattern and backlash and you'll have a good idea whether its a problem with the gear set or a problem with assembly.

    If the noise was only on the coast side then it'd likely be a pinion problem, either bad bearing or preload. But when its noisy on both drive and coast I'd bet the pattern doesn't look good.

    Lots of people are scared of setting up a rear end it seems. All it really takes is some basic tools, a press, some patience, and an understanding of what the pattern tells you about what needs adjusting and in which direction.

    This video does a good job of explaining in simple terms how the various adjustments affect the pattern.

    If its bad enough that you can hear it over loud mufflers then you don't have a lot to lose by checking it out and learning the basics.
     
  26. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    This is a video of the noise.

    1. Click on the Attachment
    2. At the bottom of the page...click on Open
    3. Let it load 100%
    4. Double click on IMG_0699
    5. Turn up volume
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  27. crusin55
    Joined: Jun 12, 2006
    Posts: 205

    crusin55
    Member

    Update....They recalled it and said there was nothing wrong with it. They said the bearings showed excessive scoring for the small amount of miles (500). They also said that would be caused by wrong oil, not enough oil or contamination in the housing. NO WAY.....I bought the oil they suggested, filled it to the bottom edge of the fill hole and cleaned the housing with Brake Kleen and wiped it down.

    I would say the bearings were bad when installed (Timken) or installed improperly.

    They offered to build me a new one or give me a refund. I took the refund.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
    Johnboy34 likes this.
  28. chevyfordman
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 822

    chevyfordman
    Member

    I bought a 3rd member from Speedway, after 5K miles it started to howl, I removed it, sent it to Speedway. They said the gears looked good so they changed the pinion bearings and sent it back to me. It has been quiet ever since. Its hard to get good bearings these days.
     
  29. That seems a little funny to me. Earlier, you mentioned that if nothing was wrong with it, shipping both ways would be on your dime.
    Now they're offering a refund or to build you a new one instead of just sticking you with the shipping costs and sending your same one back to you? Seems to me like they cracked it open, found some issues, and decided to stay quiet on it.
    Either way, glad to hear you got your money back.
     

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