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Hot Rods Truth in fabrication

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Irrational Metalworks, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. ckunsman89
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 96

    ckunsman89
    Member
    from cocoa, FL.

    This is a real gray area in the restoration/custom world. I know a few shops that have a chassis made by shop A, have shop B do the sheetmetal work, have so and so paint it, and then just assemble everything in their shop and represent it as a car they built with no mention of shop A, B, and so and so. It happens more often than you think. It sucks for the people who put in quality work with ne recognition, but it is also how the guy that orcheastrates the build gets customers cars in his hands to delegate. Think of it as a building superintendant, While he is not actually building the house, he makes it happen and his name is on the finished product.
     
  2. True,Mr Ditmar is kinda easy goin...I did notice that one of thier(Hatfields) employees has not chimed in here as he is usually on the HAMB quite often
     
  3. 32coupedeville
    Joined: Dec 10, 2006
    Posts: 1,253

    32coupedeville
    Member
    from cincy

    here is my 2 cents! my dad and i run a shop here in cincinnati. we build frames. basic frames ( even tac welded) to rollers. we also have done turn key cars. i also on my own time will build a basic hot rod ayear to sell for fun money. i have had people clam they built one of the cars i sold and have had many people say they built the car or frames we built .

    so here is my prospective on this : if the owner wants to tell people about the work done on his car , or is proud enough to stand next to his car , he should say ( or list or a board for shows) ALL who have worked on the car. this is my feeling on the matter.

    now if they take credit for building or another shop takes credit for a built , it is up to them to live with the lie!!!!!

    here is my example of a lie some one is living with. my 32 hupmobile:
    [​IMG]
    then
    [​IMG]
    now.

    yes things are different with the new owner. he even painted it. i dont want credit for the thing i DID NOT do but in the same respect he took credit for the chop, louvers, channel, supsention, finding the car .

    COME ON PEOPLE ! GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE!!!!! sorry for the rant but i feel your pain man.

    lying helps no one !

    giving credit helps everyone!
     
  4. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

    Threads like this keep popping up and what gets me are the people who say, "Once I get paid, I'm through with it."

    I would venture to guess 85% of the work a hotrod/custom shop gets is word of mouth or by show bills. Hotrodders are not "picking up the yellow pages", when they need a shop. So, how the hell can you not care that you're not getting credit for your work. So, I call BULLSHIT, on the "I don't care" attitude. Either you're so busy you can't take in customers or you're a liar. And as far as I know, VERY few shops are turning away business.
     
  5. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,950

    moefuzz
    Member



    I think the only thing Al Gore invented was Global Warming!
    and then he set about profiting from it.:rolleyes:




    .
     
  6. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 6,778

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Just curious who the customer first contacted to build the truck, IM or Hatfield? In other words, was Hatfield the "building contractor" in construction parlance? Not that it should make a difference in giving credit, perhaps it does in their minds.
     
  7. metal man
    Joined: Dec 4, 2005
    Posts: 2,948

    metal man
    Member

    Good point. When I had my house built, the general contractor did not lay the block for the foundation, but still considered it his build. Just playing Devil's advocate, trying to see it from their side, hoping they did not intentionally try to take credit for your work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  8. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    Montiac Motorsports was the contractor. He didn't get any either.
     
  9. metal man
    Joined: Dec 4, 2005
    Posts: 2,948

    metal man
    Member

  10. nailhead terry
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,453

    nailhead terry
    Member

    I might be a little confused I saw the truck at Garys shop and it had been there for a while Dale is a personal friend of mine and the owner has the say in who he wants to credit. I have done some metal work on some customs in the area only to recive no credit. I think your concerns should be with the owner. We built parts for the Windfield truck and Smiths 32 but we did not finish the vehicles I hope you get this straight I have admired your work. This kinda stinks. I dont think that this a personal attack on you. been there I also have the Tee Shirt !!Your work is awesome but you already knew that .
     
  11. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    Thanks Terry. The truck sat for a while at all of our places. I know it got pushed back in the corner of my shop a couple of times for reasons I won't go into. You are right, the owner should have some say so. I wish he would come forward and explain this whole deal. Mike, where are you???
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  12. This same thing happened to me at a goodguys show in Des Moines a few years ago.....
    there in the top 5 for Custom Rod of the year, sat the '51 Buick 2 door woodie that I had spent 12 - 40 hour weeks fabricating every part of the outer "Woodie" body panels from steel....

    Setting with it were three guys from a Texas shop,claiming they built the car, in matching clothes and matching chairs ,showing a book of "their" construction pictures to an admiring audience....

    When I walked up and asked some questions ,they were quick to answer them ,untill I introduced myself and said where were these pics taken?
    they immediately,took off and left the car!

    They had ,[in their defense] installed air bags [on my rear end installation] and the stereo system in this car.....
    The owner jumps up and introduces himself...[as I had never actually[physically] met him before this].....

    To make matters worse, the owner,a guy who had had a disagreement/problem with the painter on this car and as a result, he ommitted his name from the show card [and following article] in Custom Rodder completely to get back at him......

    It really gives you some insight into how..... =little=
    a guy can really be ,when it comes to Custom vehicle -OWNING- ......and showing......
    there were at least 3 other shops who did some things-engine/upholstery etc on the car as well....
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  13. planocabeza
    Joined: Oct 20, 2005
    Posts: 2

    planocabeza
    Member
    from Dallas

    Tim,
    have not seen you since '07 and I missed you at the GoodGuys this weekend. As you can see the truck turned out great. Thanks for the help with the metalwork. Tim did all the metal work on the truck and I could not be happier. As far as ready for paint/wiring/interior he got me pretty fucking close by the time it was dragged from his shop. The little poster board also failed to mention my friend Monty Ditmer at Montiac Motorsports. Monty and I started this project while I was in highschool and turned the reins over to Tim for his metal expertise. Also want to mention Steve Farklay from Uncommon Engineering in Indy for doing great work. As you can see there were a few names omitted from the poster board but I know this was not done maliciously. I honestly did not want to have one let alone one with my name on it. Hatfield threw one together for the brief run of shows It was entered in. Sorry it did not have your name or anyone else on the board but if it makes you feel any better that will be the last time you see one in front of the truck. The truck was built to be driven and just happened to turn into a show winner over the years. I give props to Hatfield for their high level of detail and doing such a great job taking the truck to the next level. I do not think it would have had the success it did if I had finished it any other way. This project was a collaboration of forces and it turned out to be a winner. Thank you Hatfield for the finish, thank you Tim for the metal, thank you Monty for the mentoring and frame work, thank you Steve for the engine. Tim, know that your work will not go unrecognized, especially in print. If there happen to be magazine articles eeeeeveryone know they will be mentioned for their respected credit. People need to chill out on the interweb. As you can see i have been on the HAMB since 05 and this is one of my first posts. I do not actively engage in social networking/blogging/forums for this very reason. Congrats Irrational/Montiac/Uncommon/Hatfield/Me on a job well done. I will be in Austin at the Lonestar Roundup and everyone can come by and check out the truck sans-poster.

    Peace and grease,

    Mike
     
  14. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    Thanks for clearing things up Mike! Everyone that had anything to do with this build did an awesome job, and the truck turned out great. There seems to be a lack of integrity in this business, and when it comes my way I am not scared to fight for what's right!
    See you in Austin!
     
  15. texasred
    Joined: Dec 3, 2008
    Posts: 1,070

    texasred
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Houston

    Looks like the shit got cleared up, with the owner's post..good for you, you do damn nice work and should get credit for it..
     
  16. HighSpeed LowDrag
    Joined: Mar 2, 2005
    Posts: 968

    HighSpeed LowDrag
    Member
    from Houston

    While I understand the Irrational Metalworks point of view, and I also would want my shop listed on the build sheet, It's a fact of life that the last person to touch takes all of the blame, or in this case, all of the credit. That's just the way it is.It's up to the guy paying for the build to give proper credit for work done. I think he just did so. As an example, we just came back from San Antonio. Won best of show. We didn't give credit to Ford. The guy who paid for the car to be rebuilt has the say. My .02 but I agree that you deserved a mention. Unfortunately, once you take the money for work done, it's out of your hands.
     
  17. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    Irrational/Montiac/ Uncommon/Hatfield. You sure picked a bunch of funny names to build your truck Mike!!! Hatfield is the only normal name on it!
     
  18. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,625

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Just as a follow up, I did receive a reply from Hatfield today.

    It goes like this :

    We have been in business for over 22 years and completed over 500 automobile restorations, some of those were started and never finished by shops all over the United States.
    We have given out Mr. Young's business cards and we have the concept drawing of the pickup hanging in our shop with Montiac Motorsports' logo on it. We have never denied work was performed by other shops. The truck was delivered to Hatfields by Monty Ditmer, owner of Montiac Motorsports. He is very pleased with the completed project and was not negative in any way.
    Mr. Young has been employed by Hatfields to do various metal work projects and was even employed by Hatfields for a short time while his shop was slow.
    We have no animosities toward either of the shops involved with this build. It should however be ultimately up to the owner of the vehicle as to who is mentioned for credit, seeing how he is the one who spent the money. There is high interest from several automotive publications and it will also be up to the owner as to who is credited for involvement in the build.
    We did assemble the truck and fixed several problems with the truck and that is what we were hired to do. It was finished to a state where it has already received awards; those do not go to us, they go to the owner.
    It is not up to Hatfields to promote anyone, both shops could have represented themselves at our booth or at any of the shows that the truck has been displayed.
    In closing, perhaps if Mr. Young had not put the cart before the horse as they say, maybe he will be included and maybe he won't.

    Thanks for your interest in these matters,
    Gary Hatfield and the Hatfield Team

    Glad the owner of the truck chimed in and all seems well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  19. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    I don't understand the cart before the horse statement as his sign was very deceptive, but whatever! As far as being" employed" by Hatfield, that is not true. I have done work for their shop on a few of their jobs that they couldn't do. I have built specialty parts for them on my Pullmax. I did work on Smiths 32 for 2 weeks as a sub contractor until I started a new project!
    I don't know where he got my cards to pass out either! He didn't get them from me.
     
  20. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 6,778

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Re: I don't understand the cart before the horse statement as his sign was very deceptive, but whatever!

    Sounds like he's referring to the potential upcoming publications, and your concerns about not being included at this point perhaps jeopardizing future inclusions. That's the way I understood it.
     
  21. tnich123
    Joined: May 26, 2009
    Posts: 160

    tnich123
    Member

    I don't know about the horse before the cart but I think its time to stick a fork in this one and call it done. I just want to see it again at the roundup. I admire the owner for stepping in and responding to the post I also admire Hatfields for stepping in and telling their side of the story. Now its time to get the tires dirty at the roundup and let us all admire the builders work . Hell I want a ride in it. And last but not least thanks Terry for the bed you guys built for my truck it really makes the truck.
    See ya all at the roundup.
     
  22. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,625

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    They did nothing of the sort. The only reason "their side of the story" is posted here is because I posted their response to an e-mail I sent them.

    The owner promised to make things right despite what Hatfields said or any threat they implied that proper recognition might not be given in any future events or magazine coverage.
     
  23. willys1
    Joined: Oct 31, 2012
    Posts: 1,021

    willys1
    Member
    from South Ga

    I remember those...so simple...yet, so crystal clear on the credits :confused:
     
  24. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    Hatfields reply is full of holes! I don't care what they say, I have proof they lied about building the truck. It's water under the bridge, I'm a Christian and I forgive them! They did all this to themselves and will have to live with it!!!
    The owner and I have talked about things, and he is a great guy that's willing to give credit where credit is due. Everyone that had anything to do with this truck did an awesome job, even Hatfields!
    See you all on Friday!!!
     
  25. nailhead terry
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,453

    nailhead terry
    Member

    Amen the ones that know understand ! Your work, my work and everyones becomes a part of them if you care about what you do. Just keep doing what you do best awesome metal work. Inspire, rise above and show people your best !!
     
  26. PeteFromTexas
    Joined: Apr 4, 2007
    Posts: 3,837

    PeteFromTexas
    Member

    Glad. This is getting resolved Tim. You are an upstanding guy and doing the Christian thing is really the high road. I've had a ton of forgiving to do myself. Life is to short but I totally understand why you were upset. Keep up the great work buddy.
     
  27. Irrational Metalworks
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Irrational Metalworks
    Alliance Vendor
    from DFW

    Thanks Pete. It's hard to do sometimes, but it is what's right!
     
  28. chinarus
    Joined: Nov 9, 2010
    Posts: 499

    chinarus
    Member
    from Georgia

    Since I gave the government tax money that Al claims he turned into "funding for Internet", does that mean I can claim I was an inventor as well?
    If I haul a frame to a sandblaster should he get credit for his part of the build?
    Where do you draw the line?
     
  29. raengines
    Joined: Nov 6, 2010
    Posts: 227

    raengines
    Member
    from pa.

    as always.....He who pays has the say
     
  30. Atomic Kustom
    Joined: Feb 5, 2010
    Posts: 202

    Atomic Kustom
    Member

    I'll take fortune over fame anytime!!
     

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