Technical Transverse Spring Suspension Issues on 1947 Ford after reverse eye leafspring install.

Short version:

Installed posies superslide reverse eye for 3" drop. Didn't drop much, car leans to one side, and axle is not centered. Any ideas?

Long version:

It started out with a brake upgrade, then the project kept growing as problems were found:

1. Lincoln self-energizing brakes(wanted it to stop better)(required some grinding to spindles)
2. Posies superslide reverse eye leaf spring(found car was in collision and shackles were bent up)
3. Speedway roller kingpins(while doing springs found kingpins were wore out)
4. Shimming the Perch Bolt(Perch bolt frozen while the radius rod was loose on the axle, and was in crooked - stabilizer bar attaches.)(torch and air hammer)
5. Replaced track bar bracket(original was bent backwards, probably from a collision)
6. dropped steering arms.(Passenger side tapered hole for tie rod on original spindle was destroyed)(required grinding on axle for clearance)
7. Tie rod and ends.(bent Tie Rod and end on passenger side.)

The latest problem has me scratching my head for answers.

After putting it all back together, the passenger side sits 1.25 inches higher than the drivers at the fenders, the axle isn't centered(it looks like the track bar needs to be a little over a half an inch shorter), and the car doesn't look like it lowered much at all if any (leaf was supposed to lower it 3 inches). My dad thinks it's sitting higher. To me, it looks about the same. It wasn't impressive, and frustrating.

I don't know if it was this way before I started work on it, or after. I pulled the track bar loose to let the car settle the axle more in the center using its own weight. That helped with the goofy angles on the shackles(driver's side was almost vertical, pass side at 45+), but the height is what I don't understand. I was hoping that once the goofy angle on the shackles were minimized a little, the height would also resolve a little, but it didn't.

There is a patch to the frame on the passenger side in the front as well. This car had been in a wreck in a previous life at some point. Hit hard on the passenger side where all the damage was.

Here are some ideas I have:

Idea 1.
Swap the spring around and see if the drivers side ends up being high.. If it does, then blame the spring and call Speedway for a replacement. And if it remains the same mess... Well, I hadn't got that far into this thought.

Idea 2.
Check out the frame to see if it's bent. I don't know how to do this.

Idea 3.
Make a custom adjustable track bar to pull the axle to where it should be, drive it around with one side higher than the other until it goes to a body shop. They can figure out if the frame is bent.

Idea 4.
Ignore the problem and drive it with an off center axle and a lean.

 

You could put the rear of the car on stands on the frame, level, and see what if anything that does to the front. Strange things at the rear (broken, sagged unequal, or bound up springs / bushes / shocks) can and will affect the front.

Checking the frame involves checking it for level and square. Need spirit level(s), plumb bob, chalk, tape measure and a flat surface. A low tech, measuring stuff procedure.

When installing the spring did you tighten all 4 bolts evenly and progressively? If not, undo and start over!

Chris

 

Maybe check that the bolt head in the top middle of the spring is in the hole in the cross member.

 

By you telling that you had to grind the spindles, tells that it's the front end that you are working on. First I would do as Sod suggests to make sure the spring is centered. Next I would loosen the "U" bolts that hold the spring in the crossmember and re-tighten them equally. I have heard of cases where people have socked up one side of the "U" bolts and then the other causing the car to lean. If, as you state that the car was in a collision, then you have other issues we can address next.

 

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A couple things: First check the frame for straightness. Use some jackstands in the back of the frame to get it level back there, and jack the front crossmember up in the center. Measure down to the ground to see if the front frame horns are level. Drop plumb bobs to the ground from points that should be equal, like the bumper iron bolts at each corner. Then from the center of each crossmember. Check to see if there is a good straight centerline down your frame, and if the sides of the rails are equidistant from this centerline.

Are you sure you replaced your panhard bracket correctly? That might be why the bar now seems the wrong length.

Springs need a bit of driving on them to settle. The actual height isn't immediate after you drop the car off the jacks. It might take a week of driving for it to settle.

 

Take it apart, check for bent components and bent frame, then put it back together slowly looking for fitment problems as you go - one step at a time. Chances are you missed one or more potential fitment problems in your enthusiasm to get it back together. Just ask me how I know how that sometimes happens...

 

That “track bar” is a pan hard bar. It should be under no stress while sitting on the ground. Bend it or re drill the hole in the bracket to account for any new drop.

Sounds like the spring isn’t centered with the bolt in the hole in the crossmember.

Photos are going to be key if you want a good answer

 

If you had to force or lever any of the parts into place, that's where to start looking.

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Loosen spring bolts, if nothing changes take to good frame shop and have them gauge the frame properly.

If I had a dollar for every time I had someone bring me a vehicle that that the frame was screwed up on and have them tell me they or their buddies checked it out and it was fine, I could stop working and retire right now.

Everything from a award winning 56` that had been totally restored and built with 1-1/2" twist in the frame, they'd park it on uneven ground so you wouldn't notice how much twist they built into the body.

A 29 ford 4 door that was just scary and again cobbled together. I've seen my fair share of somebody else's "it's fine" come back and bite them in the ass.

So if it's that far out of level, u know it's been wrecked, patches welded to the side if the frame, take it to a professional and save your self a lot of headaches

 

Wow! A lot of good responses!

Happydaze, I did a lot of the putting it on jack stands and measuring already, only confused myself more. I think putting it on two stands forces the car to lay flat - It cannot lean. However, I did put a single jack under the center of the spring in the front to allow the rear to lean. It leaned a little(half an inch?), and the opposite direction. When I think about it, maybe that does indicate a twisted frame? The bolts for the spring were bolted evenly according to the correct pattern, to a specific torque value.

Sod Buster, that absolutely would cause a problem like this, but the round button is in the square hole. I wish it were that simple. It was very difficult to get that put it in correctly. Very good response to anyone seeing this thread with the same problem.

Alchemy, wow, I’ll do this one. The track bar bracket is a split two piece bracket that includes the stabilizer bar bushing as well. It’s stock, and it’s very tricky. It’s impossible to get the track bar in there without splitting the bracket and clamping the bushing in. It all bolts in place. I’m not sure if it’s possible to put the bracket in in a way to cause this much offset. I’ll post some pics. I’ve since loosened things, but you can see the rod appears to be too long, yet it measures 34 1/2 inches, which is the same as one being sold on eBay. Since they match, I assume that is the correct length. As mentioned before, it was connected, but the axle was off center, so I loosened it. As far as settling, I did a lot of simulated driving by jumping up and down on the bumper. A lot of it. Over several days. Definitely going to check out the frame like you suggested.

Tim! Thank you for saying that. Yes, I also believe the track bar, or pan hard bar, is supposed to go on fairly easy with the weight of the vehicle centering the axle, maybe a little passenger weight for good measure. There’s ride height and 50% travel and such, but basically I believe this is correct. I’m so glad you brought that up because I saw another post say to assemble the rod before putting it all together because it would require wrestling it in and adjustments. Well, if it’s not centering the axle, it’s not doing the one job it’s supposed to do.

lostone, I hear ya... and that’s probably what’s going to happen, eventually. But, Part of the whole experience of working on this car is the bonding experience with my father through heated argument over what the hell I did wrong, how stock parts should just magically work with aftermarket, and how steering arm drop is or isn’t measured from what stock is.(it isn’t, so don’t think 1 3/4 drop will work on this car) Once our relationship survives this, it will be so much stronger. Then we’ll take it to someone else to fix. Those shops “love” projects someone has already worked on.

I’ll go get some pics. Thanks guys. Very helpful.

 

Yeah if it’s under tension when it’s on the wheels your gonna rip the bracket off the frame pretty quick driving it

 

Here are some images.

 

And a few more. Had to stop and resize a pic to lower the file size.

 

put a jack under the center of the rearend and see if the front side to side height changes-remove panhard bar and ck too.

 

Fish, before you started on this, were the shackles at the angle they are now. My bone stock 46 Merc front shackles are straight up and down when the car is sitting on the ground.. It rides good, drives straight and the panhard bar does exactly what it's supposed to do. Is it possible that the new spring is shorter than it's supposed to be or shorter on one side? I know that sounds weird but it looks like you've got two different angles on the shackles. Have you measured from the frame to the backing plates on both sides?

 

Yes alan, the shackles are at different angles in the photo, but they are much better than they were. Much much better. They weren't even close to the same angle at all before I took the track bar off. The track bar was pushing the axle out toward the passenger side. I hadn't taken the measurement you suggest, but something quite similar. I measured the lateral distance of the tire to the fender on each side. Yup, the track bar was pushing it over. The axle was not centered, causing the shackles to have extremely different angles.

I have done a couple of suggestions so far and was going to wait a little while until I had done further analysis, and other suggestions, but here is what I've discovered so far:

Lifting the back of the car by the center of the rear axle does nothing to change the lean. So the back suspension is not a contributor. Thanks for the idea olscrounger.

woodywagon46 had an easy idea to try, even if I did follow the tightening procedure correctly, this was too easy not to try. I loosened the u-bolts until I could wiggle them - enough to know they're loose, but not loose enough for things to come apart on me. Then I jumped up and down on the passenger side bumper to see if I could get that side to come down. It wouldn't move. I tried a lot. Big hopes, utter disappointment.

I decided I would lift the car up to prepare to remove the leaf spring, inspect where the spring seats for debris, or anything out of the ordinary, and install the spring the other way to see if it leans the other way, or the same way.

There were some observations made. The passenger side tire comes down a LOT further than the drivers side. While on jack stands, the fenders are exactly the same distance from the shop floor. I'm hoping this is a good indicator that the people who patched the frame did a good job straightening things.

I'm taking the shackles off as soon as I have time, then making observations on where the eyes are with no load. Then pulling the spring, inspecting the spring and where it seats, and if I still don't see the problem.... I am going to install it the other direction and see if the lean goes the opposite way. If it goes opposite, it's the spring, no doubt. If it leans the same way, it's not the spring. Simple enough.

Stay tuned.

 

Just measuring the fenders is not the whole story. You need to measure the squareness of the frame. You know it was hit before, so the sheetmetal is probably off kilter. Just for kicks, measure the front frame horns down to the ground and see if that slant is the same amount you are finding at the fender.

Many cars out there that have been hit (or even cars driven hard over rough roads) will have the sheetmetal tilted differently than the frame.

And, look at the spring in the crossmember again. Your pic seems to show the centerbolt of the spring way down in the hole of the crossmember. Is there something in there between the spring and crossmember? There is only supposed to be a thin strip of welting to stop squeaks, and maybe yours has something bunched up in there pushing the spring crooked.

 

The 'didn't drop much' may be due to the new spring being not "sagging" as much as the old one when weight is applied,

 

alchemy, I think you're on to something with the frame horns. The frame horn is where the stabilizer bar attaches. It turns out the drivers side horn is about a half an inch higher. This would lower that side by a little over a half an inch, or we could say the other side raises itself by half a inch. Not sure if one is too high or the other too low. I think this may be why the car has a "lean" to it when there isn't even a spring in it. See the pic. The bushing brackets are loose, but not that loose.

I also did as you suggested and pulled the spring to check the strip of welting. There's a lot of thickness there, but it solidly fits in the hole, and there was no debris. However, when measuring the distance of the eyes of the spring to the garage floor, the passenger side was about a half inch lower. I carefully inspected the spring dimensions. It's all good. Then installed it the opposite way to see if there was a difference. There was no observable difference with the spring the other way. I'm thinking all this has nothing to do with the spring, and everything to do with the frame.

I'm going to put the spring back in after I finishing swearing at the shackles and their two piece bushings for not cooperating. Putting the shackles in on this is ridiculously hard. Even with the whole thing out of the car it was difficult. The shoulder of the shackle bolt always pushed the back half of the bushing out... unless you get lucky.

So, 1/2 inch of lean to the spring, 1/2 inch of difference in the frame horn.. That's worth just over an inch of trouble. It adds up. After the spring is back in, I'm going to pull the stabilizer and see how much of the problem goes away. Maybe my dad can drive it with no stabilizer, or I can just put a spacer in there until it goes to the shop.

X-cpe, I was thinking the same thing. My main concern was the weird angles and lean to the car. There have been others complaining about only getting a 1 1/2 drop from this spring. Saggy springs do lower cars.

 

As already implied, the spring will lower it 3” lower than stock....where did it sit before compared to stock?


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Alchemy, there is a large pad riveted to the crossmember(see pic). It looks like it is a factory part, with the rivets and all. Is that not supposed to be there? Does anybody have a 1947 Ford on here that could look and see if they have one also? Taking that out would lower the car a bit.

I talked to a shop about straightening the frame up. They said it would make more problems than correct. Of course, they never actually looked at the car, this was just over the phone.

After making the car level with the jack, it looked weird like it was leaning the other way. HA! It was the bumper. The bumper had been adjusted to level with the car leaning to make it appear more level. So the bumper needs to get straightened as well.

The best solution I could come up with is:

1. Making a shim to effectively lower the driver's side frame horn by a half an inch.(made myself, see pic)

2. Buying an adjustable track bar.(from speedway, see pic)

3. Having a custom leaf spring shim made.(4Crawler Offroad, up to six weeks out!)

THE FRAME HORN SHIM

The shim was a no-brainer. From what I can tell the frame was overpulled by whomever repaired so many many years ago, and caused the passenger side frame horn to be lower than stock, and induce a small angle in the crossmember. I can't take the 1/2 inch away from the passenger side, only add it to the driver's side to match.

THE TRACK BAR

The adjustable track bar eliminates the need to move things all over the place to get a fixed track bar to work right.

The shim will compensate for the lean caused by the slightly angled cross member. Normally used to adjust pinion angles on parallel leaf spring rear suspensions, I am using it to level the leaf spring.

THE LEAF SPRING SHIM

The leaf spring is approximately 1/2 too low on the passenger side and is 41 inches long eye to eye as the crow flies, not along the arch. This makes a right triangle with a hypotenuse of 41 inches and a side of 1/2 inches. I find the small angle using the inverse sin function: arcsin(.5/41) and find an angle of 0.7 degrees. Amazing! Such a tiny angle making such a big mess. 4Crawler Offroad makes custom shims, and I requested a 1 degree shim. I probably could have contacted him and asked for a 0.7 degree shim, but... 1 degree was an option, and I don't know exactly how precise my measurements are, or how precise the shim is either. In theory the shim would over correct the spring by 0.21 inches. This will probably be a guess and check thing. It might involve some sanding/grinding/milling of a shim to the correct angle.

These shims come in matching pairs, so if the angle is too large, I have one to screw with a little.

 

Are the front fenders attached to the frame via a large yoke that pivots in the center? I know 40 Fords do, and wonder if later Fords do to. If that is the case, fixing the crooked frame would probably not mess up the fender alignment because the fenders would still "float" over the frame.

Any shop that tells you they can't fix it without even seeing it really doesn't want your business. But I'd still rather have a square and level frame than be shimming and tweaking. Find a better frame straightening shop.

 

I agree with you 100% Alchemy. This is just to get it on the road. All these are bolt-ons that can be removed easily later. With a running driving car, we can drive it around to shops where they have equipment instead of expecting them to make a house call. We'll probably have someone check it out as soon as we can drive it, but the frame probably won't be fixed until it goes in for body and paint at a later date. In total, I spent around $100 total on the temporary fix. I'm saving all the original parts just in case we can use them again.

Neither I, nor my dad, or anyone I have consulted with, knows of a good frame shop in our area(Tri-Cities in South Eastern Washington State). If anyone here knows a place near to us that can do a good job straightening a '47 Ford frame, post a reply to this thread please. "Near" means with 100 miles.

 

Looks like you have it figured out.
For those who might be facing a similar condition, you can get shims in varying degrees from a truck alignment shop, or truck parts store. The will be too wide, usually 4", but you can narrow and shorten them. We always had a bucket of used ones from caster changes. For free.

 

Update. The lean without the leaf spring shim(hasn't arrived yet), just track bar and spacer, has been reduced from over 1 inch down to 3/8 of an inch. I've included a photo of the straight track bar and spacer installed.

I've now moved onto the rear of the car... and found a bearing race on the axle that... well, you can see the pictures. Fortunately my dad had plans to replace the rear differential with a rebuilt one he had just lying around. You can see the pictures of that too. That's unrelated to this thread, but figured I'd update with the results of the track bar and spacer, and how much improved it is, and include a little bit of what's next. I'll probably have some questions along the way on this chapter of the repairs as well.

 

The shims arrived a couple of days ago, but with the rear end in pieces, it will have to wait. The shims look good. There's a machined flat spot and everything. I did some measuring and mathematics and calculated the angle to be about 0.88 degrees., which is good news because I calculated one degree was too much. This should work perfect because the driver's side will be a very tiny bit higher, until the driver sits in it.

Off topic, but do they sell a u-joint for this thing with rollers? or just say that it has rollers and you find out there's none when it arrives? Surprise!

Local car show, Cool Desert Nights, is next month on the 20th... I better hurry up so he can drive it there. Not that this is a show car, far from it. But, driving a new minivan to see a classic car show... I think we all should avoid that if we can, but do it if we must.

 

Roller bearings are not necessary in the stock U joint. The bushings worked fine for many millions of old Fords from 1928 to 1948.

 

Hmmm. I blasted and painted the shock brackets before noticing they are two different lengths. Aren't they supposed to be the same length? Part No. 51A-18194 for the passenger side, and 51A-18195B for the driver side. It wouldn't make sense to have different shock travel on one side, and the replacement ones advertised here:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/ford-shock-mount-banjo-rear-end-28-48.1081917/

Show them the same length. Not that this is a huge problem, or really a problem at all. I'm just curious if one of these, or both, are not correct. Maybe there's some more of these around here somewhere and I can make a matched set. Or, is this the way they are from the factory? I can't find a way to verify the part numbers.

 

Stock tube shock brackets are different length. Really makes no difference in shock operation.