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Technical Torqueflite ??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 34Larry, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Well I am not well up on automatic tranny's, well that's a lie, cause I ain't up in the slightest on automatic tranny's. So when getting some ecumacation on line about fluid level in my B&M 727, I keep reading about the qt. quantity in the torque converter and how it effects qt. quantity in the trans over all. I'm assuming that the tq. fills at a slower rate and is filled from within the case which seems obvious enough, or fills when the trans is put in gear. Ok so far??? So now the idiot question: When I drop the plug from the pan and drain it, will that also drain the tq as fast as it does the case? I'd prefer not to drain the tq if possible. And I'm assuming that if that is at all possible (possibly because the tq drains so much slower) and the pan can be plugged off when say three or four qts. measured out, or will the draining slow way down.
    The real crux of this problem is I'm having a hell of a time with knowing when the damned thing is full or over full. I installed a Lokar tranny fill and stick.
    I could hardly read where it was on the stick so I painted it flat black on the end and that helped some and now I think it is over full so I'm going to drain the pan and start all over.
    I know this sounds like a damned fool question and sounds even worse for someone who is supposed to know what the hell your doing, even in rereading it, but what can I say??
    Thanks for your help, next I ask about adjusting hydraulic lifters and the best way that is accomplished in my 331. I have of course have done this, but have been told it can be done on two cylinders at a time.
     
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  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The converter usually will not drain at all when you pull the pan, on any automatic transmission. It usually takes around 4 quarts to refill a transmission after draining the pan. But they're all different...

    What year is the transmission? They had drain plugs on the converter on TF transmissions up through around 1977.

    Aftermarket dipsticks like that suck. If you can fit a normal tube and dipstick in, it will make life better for you.

    adjusting the valves with hydraulic lifters...I do it one cylinder at a time, in the firing order, it makes life easier for me.
     
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  3. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Hey Jim thanks for the quick answer. Really embarrassing to ask this, but now I know. It really is confusing when reading the multitude of answers on line. So now I'm out to drain the thing and refill it.
     
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  4. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Sorry should have said no idea of the year, it came with the '55 hemi so it could be a 55 ??
    Thanks again.
     
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  5. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 8,431

    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    If it is a '55 model ransmission, it is a Powerflite....not a Torqflite....biggest difference is the PF is 2 spd, the TF is 3 speed. TF was not introduced until the '56 model year. Not nitpicking here, just offering some add'l info.

    As for adjusting the hydraulic lifters, usless you have a fairly rare set of adjustable rocker arms, there is no provision for adjustment. If the engine has not been modified, i.e block decked, heads milled, etc., the stock non-adjustable rocker arms and OEM pushrods should be correct for stock dimesion cam and lifters.

    Ray
     
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  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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    squirrel
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    I would try to find the original shop or owner's manual for the the car the trans came with, and see what it has to say about capacity.
     
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  7. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Thanks Ray and Jim. This is a 3 speed so it must be a TF Ray, and by adjusting I was referring to setting up zero lash. When I put it back together the last time I didn't get it right and I left one to loose and the lifter is loud, on # 6 or #8. Sorry to mislead by saying adjusting. The cam is a regrind "Isky" with the right lifters is the only internal change. Just need to get back in there and do it right this time.

    Jim this is in my 34 to the left in the picture, bought the engine and trans as a package out of a 38 Chev. coupe so no telling where that owners manual from the original car is.

    Thanks once more. That is what is so great about this HAMB site.
    c
     
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  8. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
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    What I meant was to try to find out what the transmission was originally from, and get the books for it. There are probably ways to identify the transmission....if you can get some pictures of it, that would help.
     
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  9. greybeard360
    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
    Posts: 850

    greybeard360
    Member

    The trans has to be in neutral to check the fluid and for it to fill the convertor. Lokar sticks ... Not very good. Inaccurate fluid level is all they are good for.

    Sent from my Moto G Play using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  10. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 2,931

    sunbeam
    Member

    In your first post you said 727 if its not aluminum it's not a 727
     
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  11. andydodge
    Joined: Sep 28, 2008
    Posts: 588

    andydodge
    Member

    Larry, what Torqueflite is it?..........as you bought the engine/trans can you confirm exactly what Torqueflite it is, ie, is it an all aluminium one & does it have cables or linkages, how many etc, also the alloy T/f will/should have an adaptor plate to fit the trans to the engine.......... or is it an alloy bellhousing/cast iron gearbox & alloy tailpiece which indicates a 1956-1962 trans which were originally push button operated with a single cable and don't have a "Park" only neutral...............don't suppose you took a pic of it before the installation?..................andyd
     
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  12. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Try to answer what I can and what I know. First, yes andydodge it is all aluminum, don't know if it had cables or linkage in the donor car and yes it has an aluminum adapter and it does have a"park" position.
    I will have to go back through all my pic's and look to see the identifying marks. Welded on the exterior of the case is, "B & M" with an identifying number as I recall.
    Going through the pic's and then posting what I find ASAP.
    BTW I got it drained and refilled with 3 qts. and the stick is at the top of the crosshatch. Could be a qt. low I know, but I'll keep an eye on it.
     
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  13. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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    squirrel
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    you have to run the engine before the dipstick reading reallly means anything...

    and you also want it to be at the bottom of the crosshatch when the transmission is cold. The level will go up a ways after a long drive, as the fluid expands.
     
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  14. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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    squirrel
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    If the pan is shaped like this

    727pan-1.jpg


    then it's a 727
     
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  15. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Ok guys here is what I have. The crack in the case was my fault but it welded up ok. Can't locate the pic showing the number welded on the case right now but will continue looking. Picture 452.jpg
    Picture 277.jpg


    Picture 277.jpg
     
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  16. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Oh Yeah Jim I do know that much, thanks for the reminder.
     
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  17. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
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    It is a 727 transmission. Looks like you have the original dipstick and tube...I'd do the bodywork needed to make it fit the car :)

    (One fun thing about the internet, it's really hard to tell what someone else knows. No offense intended, if you know something that I assumed you might not know)
     
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  18. Brand Apart
    Joined: Jan 22, 2011
    Posts: 392

    Brand Apart
    Member
    from Atlanta

    Yes definitely listen to these guys about checking fluid level and if all possible use the factory dip stick if not Mancini Racing has several 727 dipstick tubes with locking end which work very well. I have one on a OT Plymouth
     
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  19. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 8,431

    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    Something odd looking (to my eyes) about the back of the block, where the trans bolts on. Seems the block is longer than '54 up block, and shorter than the '51/'53 block. Is there a seam that is hard to see in the photo somewhere in that 3" to 4" of 'real estate' ahead of the transmission case?

    "re the 'valve adjustment'.......with non-adjustable rocker arms correct valve lash is a function of cam lobe dimension, lifter length and plunger position/range of motion, head and block dimensions and valve stem height.....just to name those that come readily to mind. If any of these dimensions vary from OEM with hydraulic lifters it seems to me that either custom made push rods, or adjustable push rods may be needed to get the lifter plunger within it's correct range of movement to achieve zero lash.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
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  20. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
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    It looks to me like a short bell block, with a thick adapter (and that adapter appears to be two pieces sandwiched together). Neat setup....
     
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  21. andydodge
    Joined: Sep 28, 2008
    Posts: 588

    andydodge
    Member

    Larry........from my 1968 Plymouth shop manual the Torqueflite behind a standard 383/440/Police & taxis have 18 & 1/2 US pints.................the 383/440 High performance engines have 15 &1/2 US Pints, seems odd to have a smaller capacity tho' maybe these have a smaller Hi stall converter................as you have an Isky cam do you have a hi stall converter also?..........andyd
     
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  22. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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    They used two different converters, the high stall had less fluid capacity...
     
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  23. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 2,931

    sunbeam
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    65 and up trans cross and roller U joint
     
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  24. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Picture 453.jpg Picture 454.jpg Picture 244.jpg Picture 453.jpg

    Andydodge, yes to your question on the stall, had it rebuilt by local performance tranny shop.

    Hnstray here a couple of more and closer pic's. I don't see any seam and I have included a pic of the adjustable push rods your mentioning.

    Thanks again all for your help. Picture 245.jpg
    Picture 453.jpg Picture 454.jpg
     
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  25. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    So I take it that these quantities are divided between the converter and the transmission itself.?? I'm maybe just a little dense here, (really says he)? (I'm and engineer, you got ta show me). And if that is right I didn't know IF it at the time it was rebuilt from a 3500 stall to a more suitable stall that it was filled and I sure as hell they did fill it because I didn't. Am I right on this or still out there in left field with the nosebleed crowd? I've put about 100 miles on it since having it on the road so far just as a side note.
     
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  26. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
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    Yes, that capacity is divided between the pan and converter.

    Sometimes the manual will list the capacity to refill when only draining the pan, not the converter.
     
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  27. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
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    ah..I do have one Chiltons manual that lists capacity to refill, not including converter... 7.8 pints. My guess of 4 quarts was pretty close.
     
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  28. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 1,586

    southcross2631
    Member
    from Florida

    727 Mopars usually take about 4 qts to fill when you drop the pan. The torque convertor had a drain on the older models You could drain it into a clean pan and measure it and pour it back through a paint strainer to make sure you don't get any debris in the trans. You will still have a some in the clutch packs and valve body and band pistons . Maybe a quart or so. When I worked for AAmco we would put a quart in the convertor before we installed it then put 5 in the trans . As soon as we started it we would dump in 4 more and start checking after we ran it through the gears. Around 11 quarts depending on convertor size and cooler capacity and if it had an external cooler plus the radiator cooler.
     
  29. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 37,363

    squirrel
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    that's the same fill procedure I use on a fresh transmission.
     
  30. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 304

    34Larry
    Member

    Well...............all the help everyone provided me here was certainly a very large help in my dilemma. So much so that I did some good old college lesson cramming on automatics and now feel I have a general good grasp on the workings of them.........................and how simply ignorant my previous knowledge really must have come across to everyone. I would apologize for that but having been a manufacturing Engineering instructor, I know that the only stupid question is the one that is not asked.
    I also know that "book learning" can't come close to OJT, and that is the real lesson needed to become proficient in anything.
    Now to solve the leak I am experiencing and fix it. I couldn't leave this thread without expressing my gratitude to the HAMB'ERS here that offered up their life long knowledge.
    Thanks again.
     

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