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Technical Torque plates for vintage engines....

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by CNC-Dude, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    I know many of you know how much using a torque plate can improve your engine builds. I am fixing to make some for certain inline engines, and was wondering if torque plates were available for some of the unique vintage engines many of you are running, would there be any interest in me adding those to my list to make as well? Just let me know what your needs are and i'll get the ball rolling. Thanks
     
  2. take a poll......
     
  3. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    Should have done it as part of the thread when I started. I don't think you can add one after the fact it doesn't look like.
     
  4. Not an inline but 348-409 Chevy plates would be cool.
     
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  5. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,712

    Larry T
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    If you are trying to stay away from duplicates, I'm pretty sure there are torque plates available for 409s, 250 Chevys, and 300 Fords.
     
  6. I hope you've got a copyright for 'torqueplates.'
     
  7. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 2,635

    sunbeam
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    Buick Pontiac and FE Ford bore centers are so close I would think one plate with all three bolt patterns would work
     
  8. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    I'm sure there are already some available for a lot of engines, but they may be scarce for some shops to have a selection of anything besides the common Small Block Chevy and Ford's and Big Block's. But some people may want one for themselves for their favorite engines like Nailhead's or the many variety of Dodge, Plymouth and Chrysler early Hemi's and others.
     
  9. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    No copyright needed! Just calling them what they are. Thanks for your concern though....
     
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  10. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,712

    Larry T
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  11. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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  12. Disclosure:
    I'm all for torque plates, 100% believe in them even if you don't need them they are cheap insurance.

    Set up:
    Now we all know the theory on their use. Put the load on the block that distort the cylinder walls and then hone the cylinder perfectly round with the distortion. Obviously if you pre loaded the distortion then honed, once the load is removed the negative of the induced distortion would be present.

    $ 64,000 question:
    Here's the question, why don't machine shops diagnose, estimate and measure a block with torque plates? Every time the machinists will find out of round and tapered cylinders without torque plates.
     
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  13. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    Yes, distortion is present once the torque plate is removed, but the cylinders return to being perfectly round once the heads are installed on the engine. As opposed to them being perfectly round when honed with no torque plate and them becoming distorted when the heads are installed.
     
  14. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,610

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm not a machinist, which should be obvious with this question: What if the head pulls differently than the plate did? Like if an aluminum head has less force than a thick steel plate? Or the different length of bolts (plate vs. head) pulls differently in the threaded holes?
     
  15. While they are made for "Y Block" engines (292-312,etc") they are stupid money !!!

    Contact me thru a P.M. if you would consider doing one for a reasonable price.

    Thanks,Oldmics
     
  16. coilover
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 254

    coilover
    Member
    from Texas

    We did a study on different methods used in engine building and one was on torque plates. Some tests were boring one cylinder with a plate and another in the same block without. Some at room temp and others with block at running temp. Some with head bolts and others with studs. In other words every variable we could think of. Rod big ends were checked for roundness and floating pins were used with drop in place clearance. Used gapless rings and checked drag difference with just one piston assembly in the plate bored cylinder and then one in the no plate cylinder. After assembly each cylinder was given a leak down test. What we found was that if the block was "squared" by indexing off of a mandrel through the main bearing bores; deck(s), front, rear, pan rails, cam bore, top, and the head bolt holes chamfered, then there was a difference in a plate bored block and one bored off the deck but not enough to be of much difference for a normal use engine. We make our own billet blocks/heads for the pull tractor so we know exactly what we have but as in all studies there was without a doubt some omissions and flawed techniques but if ones not trying new stuff he's damn sure not learning.

    dan\'s 49 034.jpg dan\'s 49 035.jpg dan\'s 49 036.jpg
     
  17. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    All of those variables are taken into account. An aluminum torque plate is used for applications where an aluminum head is used. While the thickness of torque plates are typically an industry standard of 1-3/4"-2" inches thick, bolt lengths are often different, even in the same engine. In those cases, hardened spacers that replicate the bolt lengths are placed in the correct locations to compensate for that. All of your concerns and more have already been ironed out decades ago and are now common practices by the many companies that offer torque plates.
    With all the variables you mentioned, there is also one absolute that doesn't change, and that is when you torque your cylinder heads onto your engine, you will distort the cylinder walls, sometimes .004"-.005" out of round, depending on your blocks core shift, wall thickness, deck thickness, etc. And any preventative measure you can take to help compensate for that is better than taking none.
     
  18. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,105

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    The SBC head bolts pull on the cylinder casting, Some other engines pull on the outer block casting. I believe there would be a difference in the amount of distortion between different engines.
     
  19. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 1,732

    Kan Kustom
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    X 2
     
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  20. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    No, that remains consistent. Then there is the whole bolt vs. stud scenario. The point being you try to replicate as best as possible the stresses the torquing of the cylinder head imposes on the block. It will never be perfect because blocks aren't perfect, and don't even repeat a lot of times when you re-torque main caps for instance, but the goal is to try instead of not.
     
  21. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,610

    alchemy
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    So you need to know the final heads used (I'm thinking flathead Ford in my instance), the exact studs and washers that will be used, and measure the lengths of the assembled head & stud penetration for every hole, down to the 1/6"? Or more than that? Or less than that?
     
  22. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    It's not rocket science, but be as exact as you can be. I've never heard anyone complain or regret using a torque plate, and i've bored and honed several hundred of all brands. Even if all the variables mentioned above are totally disregarded, it still helps more than not doing it at all. And if you do keep all the variables in mind, it only gets better.
     
  23. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    If your changing studs, simply install the new ones before you hone the block and leave them in place. Then when the heads are installed, nothing has changed.
     
  24. You know my vote- 1914-1928 Chevrolet 4 :D

    Remember, I have a pretty complete 27/28 engine for you to tinker with when you're up for a trip to Brad's swap!
     
  25. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    I was already thinking about this one for you.;)
     
  26. 34toddster
    Joined: Mar 28, 2006
    Posts: 1,404

    34toddster
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    from Missouri

    Now after all of that hook up 180-200 degree water thru the block during honing, I doubt I'll ever build another engine that requires all of that labor for the street!
     
  27. You are a GOOD man, Charlie Brown :D!
     
  28. ROADSTER1927
    Joined: Feb 14, 2009
    Posts: 1,978

    ROADSTER1927
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    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx33333333333
     
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  29. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 601

    CNC-Dude
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    Definitely need to do the 348/409 engines.:cool:
     
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  30. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 6,117

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    xxxx4
     
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