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Technical Toe in

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by GARY T., Feb 13, 2018.

  1. GARY T.
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,959

    GARY T.
    Member
    from S.W. Pa

    4"drop axle. 550r16 tires model a. How much total toe with radial tires?


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  2. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 40,356

    porknbeaner
    Member

  3. GARY T.
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,959

    GARY T.
    Member
    from S.W. Pa

    Senna to me someone at one time said 1/8 for bias but something else maybe 1/16 for radial ???
     
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  4. I did mine with Tape measure. 1/8" been 2 years and still good.
     
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  5. earlymopar
    Joined: Feb 26, 2007
    Posts: 867

    earlymopar
    Member

    As with beaner and chopped51, 1/8" is what I used on my pickup with dropped axle and radials. It drives really well with that setting.

    - EM
     
  6. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 616

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Make sure the 'tech', probably aged 12, knows you want toe in, not toe out as he fits to all the fwd's he only ever sees.

    Chris
     
  7. GARY T.
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,959

    GARY T.
    Member
    from S.W. Pa

    Ha ha. Already had that happen. Gonna do it myself get it right (hopefully)


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  8. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 1,728

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    Depends on Camber.

    Neg Camber requires Toe-out
    Pos Camber requires Toe-in
     
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  9. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 40,356

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Chalk and a tape measure is all you need. Pretty damned high tech. LOL
     
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  10. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,433

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    1/8" maximum.
     
  11. Alaska Jim
    Joined: Dec 1, 2012
    Posts: 261

    Alaska Jim
    Member

    what would you recommend if you were using bias ply tires?
     
  12. I use 1/16 inch and factory caster and camber. I got the tip 57 years ago from a very good Bear alignment man.
    Bob
     
  13. Took some scrap square tubing and fab'd up me a trammel for setting toe. Cross-bar comes apart for storage/transporting
    IMG_0206.JPG
     
  14. GARY T.
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,959

    GARY T.
    Member
    from S.W. Pa

    Very nice!!


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  15. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,363

    mike bowling
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I use 2 pieces of small angle iron and a pair of welding clamps, same idea.
    Make measurements off front and back of rim ( @ 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock)
    I go 1/8 to 3/16" less in front and run it.
     
    mad mikey likes this.
  16. I always went 1/8" on bias ply tires, radials 1/16" to 0". Depending on whose alignment chart you are reading.
     
  17. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 4,963

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Kerry, could you explain that a bit more?
     
  18. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 1,728

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    When there is camber on a tyre it tries to steer like a cone rolling on the ground .This is known as camber thrust.
    Toe is a correction for this.

    Two wheels with positive camber will try to steer themselves away from each other, so they need toe-in.
    Negative camber is opposite.
    Positive camber was originally needed for the curvature in roads.
     
  19. lostone
    Joined: Oct 13, 2013
    Posts: 528

    lostone
    Member
    from kansas

    Toe is the equalizer to camber.

    Positive camber wears outside of tire, negative camber wears inside of tire,
    Excess toe in wears outside of tire
    Excess toe out wears inside of tire.

    So toe is set according to camber, let's say your running +3/4 camber you run toe basically straight up at 0". Now let's say your running -3/4 camber you run 1/8" tie in.

    In the examples above the positive camber adds outside wear by toeing straight up you actually add a little inside wear by toeing straight up which gives flat tire wear. With negative camber your picking up inside tire wear we add toe in which counter acts the inside tire wear. Toe follows camber.

    I can align your vehicle and wear your tires out in 15,000 miles BUT make it wear the tires flat or I can align it properly and wear your tires flat and get 60,000 to 70,000 out of a set of tires which we do regularly. Sadly true alignment guys are a dying breed, most today have only basic knowledge thanks to computers. Been doing it for 39 yrs.
     
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  20. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 23,506

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    1/16 to 1/8 should work. with a rear wheel drive rig you have to have some toe in but then it comes down to what is right for the rig so it tracks right but doesn't try to drag the tire sideways.
    I aligned front ends as my daily job for most of the 70's and never once heard that you changed the toe in or that it compensated for camber. None of the text books that I have on the subject say that.
    As far as camber goes normally you want right at 1/4 degree more positive on the driver's side to compensate for the crown in the road. that helps the rig drive straight down the road. The more crown the more difference, less crown the less you run. That is pretty much a regional thing and if you are from Arizona and traveling though the Olympic Peninsula of Washington your car may want to pull to the right a tad but that is because of the difference in the roads there and the ones "back home" The more rain the more crown. In your home area on the roads you drive all the time if the rig wants to drift to one side or the other on a straight flat road it is probably a camber issue.
    Caster is what helps return the steering to center after making a corner or turn. If it doesn't want to return to center the caster is most likely off if nothing is binding up in the steering. As in the rest of it, too much can be as bad as too little.
    All that said, I have never had a complaint about tire wear on any rear wheel drive rig with radials that I set at 1/8 inch. A large number of those I saw every 5000 miles for tire rotation so I was able to keep an eye on them pretty well.
     
  21. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 1,728

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    On race cars this is easy.....................We use a tyre pyrometer, or if you want to practice "the black art" learn to read the grain of tyres.
    We measure tyre wear in laps, not 60-70,000 miles. Having the ability to align like that is truly admirable.

    Caster is "another spanner in the works", With negative Camber and excessive Toe-out in normally wears the inside of the tyre. But dial in too much positive Caster and the wear ends up on the outside of the tyre.
    I am not a fan of Toe-out, it makes a car unstable on rough roads .

    A lot of cars with IFS and short upper A-arms get a lot of dynamic negative camber, so a little bit of Toe-out bump steer can counteract the induced camber thrust [ This is a True black art of the handling Holy grail]
     
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  22. Hyvolt
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 187

    Hyvolt
    Member

    Could you explain how this works? I am getting ready to align my 41 ford deluxe pretty soon. Ive ready the other posts where they would measure wheel @ 9 & 3, but i cant get to mine very well with the drop on the car.

    Thanks

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  23. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 40,356

    porknbeaner
    Member

    I hate to throw this out there because the discussion on camber is pretty good but most of our cars have the camber set from the factory and heating and bending is the only way we are going to change it.

    If it has a beam axle just put it up on jack stands ( put them under the axle) I don't use a fixture so my way is probably not going to be acceptable but if you cannot get to 9 and 3 mark your tire with a piece of chalk as far up as you can measure and then measure it on the back side of the axle then roll the tires around to the front of the axle and repeat. If you don't hit 9 and 3 exactly you are still probably going to hit the mark close enough.
     
  24. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,149

    jimmy six
    Member

    On our dirt 1/2 mile car we check it a lot. I'm not going into our settings but Longacre make an excellent device, 2 large aluminum plates and 2 matching measuring tapes. Another great tool.
     
  25. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 40,356

    porknbeaner
    Member

    About 10 years back I had a friend give me a pair of portable turning plates a toe gauge and some camber finders. A basic setup like you could bring to the track or use in the garage either way. I have a friend that I have raced with in the past ( well still sometimes), he plays with a lot of late model stuff and is more likely to use them than I will be so now he has the tools at his place.

    What I usually deal with is more primitive than that. Basically caster adjustment and toe. When you are in the bull ring or running a dragster that gets driven and needs be adjusted per the track those are important tools. Understanding how caster/camber/toe all work together is a must. It all has to work together to keep you on track and rob as little torque as it can.
     
  26. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 1,257

    Boneyard51
    Member

    My alinement guy had a device that marked the tire. He would spin the tire and hold a pionted, spring loaded “scratcher” up to the center of the tire and scribe a mark all around the tire. This method took wheel variance and tire irregularities out of the equation. And yes even the best tires and wheels wobble a little, just watch the guy spin balancing your tires next time you buy. Most stamped steel wheels have quite a bit of wobble, the machined wheels not so much. If you go off a “same thread” method your toe in could be toe out. Just my experience. Alinement on a straight axle is very important, they have a tendency to have a extreme wobble that can cause a wreck if not properly aligned and in good condition. Bones
     
  27. lostone
    Joined: Oct 13, 2013
    Posts: 528

    lostone
    Member
    from kansas

    Caster is strictly driveabilty/ stability issue. Caster makes the car stable and drive straight going down the road.

    Caster has a relationship side to side and as long as that relationship is kept then the amount of caster becomes a factor. Caster is best put this way: positive caster is like walking on your heals, negative caster is like walking on your toes.

    Most 50 & 60`s car ran negative caster as you can turn the car easier but higher speed and the cars want to drift and you don't get much road feel NOW the reason for this was manual steering. Then came standard power steering and cars went to positive caster. As you roll more caster into a car your actually rolling the upper ball joint (or strut mount) back which loads more vehicle weight onto the tires thus making it more stable, more road feel but at a cost, harder to turn but with power steering you don't notice it.

    One down side of 60`s cars are they are hard to get positive caster into if you convert to power steering. That's why you can buy tube upper arms that increase caster for gm Chevelle, GTO vehicles. Increase caster, increase higher speed stability.

    This is why you run high caster on your model A`s etc, low weight to plant and hold the tires down so it's compensated by adding caster and forcing vehicle weight onto the tires.

    Down side to positive caster it has a tendency to scrub the corners of the tires if you do a lot of in town driving and turning, also too much and the car becomes sluggish feeling on the highway. And just like camber you run around 3/8 degree more in passenger side to make up for road crown and make it drive straight. Front wheel drive isn't as touchy about caster as the tires pull the vehicle.

    Race cars are a whole different set of rules especially dirt track :)
     
  28. lostone
    Joined: Oct 13, 2013
    Posts: 528

    lostone
    Member
    from kansas

    Porknbeaner we bend them cold. We still have all the old model T and A tooling to do it. I would guess we do 20 to 30 a year. We even bend semi tractor front beam axles but those take 2 110 ton rams. We do 10 to 15 semi`s a week. About 2 hours to bend and align a semi, about 1 &1/2 hours on a straight axle passenger vehicle. It's an art form especially when you have to bend to get and keep the camber relationship side to side. And trailer axles we bend tons of them. Helped Dexter axles out several years ago on helping them set up their camber settings rolling off of their assembly line.
     
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  29. 19Fordy
    Joined: May 17, 2003
    Posts: 5,810

    19Fordy
    Member

    On my 40 Ford I use the 1/16 in. toe in shown for OEM 16 in tires in the 1935-48 Chilton's Manual.
    Current tires are 5:60x15.
     

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  30. Alaska Jim
    Joined: Dec 1, 2012
    Posts: 261

    Alaska Jim
    Member

    19Fordy, thanks for that info. I want to check/change the toe on my avatar, in hopes that it will handle a little better. I am running bias ply tires all around, and it really grabs the ruts in the road , pretty bad sometimes. I read where some guys seem to have no problems , while others do. I will be waiting for spring before anything happens around here. Just had 4 more inches of snow 2 days ago.---Jim
     

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