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Tired of fighting these brakes!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ctfortner, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    Need some help. I have searched, read, read and read....

    I did the granada swap on the 56 mainline. Here is what I have

    -NON power Disc/Drum Brake setup
    -Disc/Drum master (New) Firewall mounted
    Here is the specs on my master (NM1614 first 1978 granada)
    Application:
    Manual brakes
    With 2 wheel disc brakes (Front)
    -used granada prop valve
    -All new brake lines
    -New calipers, rotors, pads (bleeder in correct location)
    -Slightly used drums/shoes with brand new wheel cyls and hardware
    -No residual valves since using stock granada prop valve

    I bench bled master, installed. Gravity bled all 4 lines at the same time until no more air. Had a pretty good firm pedal.

    Test drove car in the driveway, 10mph or less, takes a lot of effort to stop and it take a good distance to stop too.

    I knew my drum adjusters werent where they should be, so I backed up and stopped about 20 times to get them set. NO better. So I pulled the rear drums off, turned the adjusters in all the way, did the backup and stop thing again many times, same result. Now I can actually bottom the master out, but pumping quickly will still give a decent pedal briefly.

    Results
    - The master has been full of fluid for 2 weeks, and its still full, do not see any leaks.
    - If I pump the pedal 2-3 times, I get a stiff pedal. It will go soft again a minute later though.
    - It will stop, but takes a lot of effort and a some distance to stop, not what I expect from less than 10mph and disc front brakes.

    Could this be:
    air?
    prop valve?
    push rod adjustment?
    Calipers?
    Just the way it is without power brakes?

    Without reinventing the wheel here, I just dont know where to start troubleshooting it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  2. 53choptop
    Joined: Mar 5, 2001
    Posts: 1,197

    53choptop
    Member

    what master cylinder are you running? what car/truck is it from? are you using a booster?
     
  3. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I will have to get the #s on the master again, I cant remember. I think its a granada master but dont recall. No booster
     
  4. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,758

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    You need to use a brake spoon to properly adjust the rear brakes by hand. The self adjusters might keep them adjusted after they have been properly set and they might not. I've pulled a lot of rear drums on cars with self adjusters that were not adjusted. The star wheel on a self adjuster has a hell of a lot more notches than the old non SAs star wheels. Each time you back up and stop you only get 1 notch on the star wheel. It would take forever to try to use the SAs to adjust the brakes if they work at all. Some do. Some don't.

    Adjust them up by hand until you can get about half a revolution of the tire when you spin it by hand. You should be able to feel and hear a drag coming from the shoes on drums.
     
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  5. Mean Lean
    Joined: Aug 16, 2006
    Posts: 170

    Mean Lean
    Member

    A brake hose could be internal damaged in such a way that you press the opening shut, I had it several times even with new hoses. Hard lines attached to the right places at the master? When you press several times and the pedal stays hard most of the times it is a not correct adjusted drum brake.
     
  6. 53choptop
    Joined: Mar 5, 2001
    Posts: 1,197

    53choptop
    Member

    the reason I ask, is the MC bore plays a big part in how much fluid is pumped into the calipers, 7/8 to 1 inch is what you would want, once its determined that you have that, then you move onto the next step, pedal ratio.

    Also this is going to sound like a dumb question, but how are the lines routed on the MC, rear outlet to the front, front outlet to the rear or vice versa, its always thise small things people overlook.
     
  7. rodknocker
    Joined: Jan 31, 2006
    Posts: 2,267

    rodknocker

    I would imagine the granada m/c was designed to use a booster, so this may play out to be an issue also, like stated above being too small a bore.
     
  8. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,589

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Some questions. Are the rear brakes '56? If so, they do not have auto adjusters in stock form. To adjust, turn the star wheel out until the drum is tight, then back off 10 "teeth"/ notches, or about 030" shoe-to-drum.

    Prop valves do not contain residual valves. If you are using a Ford Granada combo valve, there might be a hold off or metering valve plumbed to the fronts. If included, the button on this valve has to be pushed in while low pressure bleeding, or you will not get any fluid to the fronts.

    What is the bore of your master cylinder?

    Bob
     
  9. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    To answer some questions...I used the same master cyl that many other 50's ford guys used/recommended for their granada disc swap. I dont recall which one it is for sure, but I think its a 15/16", and I know for a fact its not smaller than 7/8" cause I read all about that when doing the swap, making sure its large enough bore. Also the master cyl comes in several flavors, drum/drum, disc/drum, and power/non power and i have the non power disc/drum one. I agree on checking all details, and I will verify, but 99% sure on the master.

    I dont think the rubber lines are a problem, I had an old hose on the rear line and couldnt get fluid to it. It was collapsed, replaced and it works fine now. All 4 wheels gravity bleed easily, so I think the lines are all OK.

    @Tommy - Where to start. Well that opens another can of worms :eek:. I knew/read about the adjustment until you can spin a full revolution and hear the contact, so that was why I removed the drums to adjust them to start with, hoping to fine tune to that point. The way it was before I removed them to adjust, I jack the rear wheels up, it took about all I had to spin it 6". No joking, all I could do to turn at all.

    So my thoughts were lets bring the adjusters in and put the wheels on, use a spoon(or 2 screwdrivers :)) and adjust till I can only spin about 1 revolution. brakes drums off I can whiz that axle around easily. put the drums on, little harder, but still pretty good. put the wheels back on and i spin it about a half a revolution, this is with the adjusters in as far as they will go.

    I dont know if it matters, but i have a posi/trac lok in the rear, but i dont understand why i can free spin the axles easily, but not when the wheels are on.
     
  10. wildearp
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 522

    wildearp
    Member
    from tucson, az

    Read above. Self adjusting rear brakes will not work if the shoes aren't close enough to the drum. I usually adjust them until there is a slight drag on the drum.

    It really sounds like you have air in your brakes. I always install proper residual pressure valves. Better safe than sorry. Speedway automotive sells them at good prices.

    Gravity bleeding may not do it for you. Often you need to get fluid flowing at a rate high enough to push out the bubbles. This can be accomplished with a pressure or vacuum bleeder. A vacuum bleeder can be made inexpensively with a pest sprayer bottle and some plumbing. You need to put teflon tape on your bleeder threads to do this properly.

    The pump and bleed method of manually bleeding brakes works most of the time, not all of the time.

    Measure your drums, make sure they are the correct diameter. I had issues with a set that were turned one or two times too many............
     
  11. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I also meant to say these are not 56 drum brakes either....the rear is a 9" from a 57 ford and the brakes are off of some other 9" rear. Mine is a small bearing 9" and these came off of a small bearing 9" rear. The guy I bought them from used them daily, and I bought the whole set with drums, backing plates, shoes etc...so I just bolted them on and put on new hardware and wheel cyls..

    I agree their may need to be some more bleeding to do, but referencing my post just above this one, their seems to be something amiss in the rear brakes, with all the drag their is on them. I also notice that drag on takeoff, it kinda feels like the ebrake is on, although its not pulled at all.
     
  12. If you can pump up the brakes, you have no fluid issues. Your brakes need to be adjusted manually. Invest a few bucks in a spoon and give it a go. Jack up the rear, put it in neutral, adjust each wheel until you get slight drag. After that, you should have a great pedal.

    Bob
     
  13. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    bob, thanks but read a couple posts above...I have major drag as soon as i put the wheels on and the adjusters in as far as they will go. Thats what I dont get, is i have drag all the time it seems
     
  14. DaCoupe
    Joined: Mar 25, 2010
    Posts: 15

    DaCoupe
    Member

    One thing to look at, if the original car had power brakes and you have now installed manual brakes, it is possible that your pedal is too short between the pivot point and the centerline of the pedal.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
    If the car did have power brakes to start with, you will need to install a manual brake mount and pedal or possibly just change the pedal.
     
  15. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    this was a non power brake drum/drum factory car, changing to non power brakes disc/drum
     
  16. mustang9093
    Joined: Dec 23, 2008
    Posts: 87

    mustang9093
    Member
    from Indiana

    Im with "DaCoupe" on the pedal ratio, it could cause high pedal effort. The brakes dragging could be caused by a master cyl. pushrod that is too long, it should not have any presure on the m/s piston. Also while you are looking at the pushrod, pull the brake pedal back as far as it will go to see if the pushrod will fall out of the m/s bore.
     
  17. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    Ok, I wonder about this pushrod too. Those that did the same swap as me, said they think they used the new granada master, but threw that rod out and used the 56 push rod. I have both, and the 56 rod is shorter. Sounds like I should try that shorter pushrod??

    The only reason I havent changed it before is because I read somewhere to be sure to have slight bit of play in the rod and there is. its SLIGHT, but i can move the pedal a TAD back and forth without moving the piston. So I assumed putting the shorter rod in there it would be too much play. I dont think it would fall out, just take longer for the rod to hit the piston
     
  18. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,589

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    With the pedal fully retracted, you want .040"-.060" play in the push rod. Be sure the pedal has a good return spring-don't rely on the master cylinder to return the pedal.
    Bob
     
  19. Stovebolt37
    Joined: May 1, 2009
    Posts: 23

    Stovebolt37
    Member
    from Idaho

    You need more bleeding if your not getting good pedal on the first pump. Check your local parts vendors for a loaner brake line pressure gauge set. Then you'll know what your getting before and after the prop valve and to the slaves instead of guessing. Then as you make changes you'll know what improvement your getting. A little more work but a lot less guessing. 80% of the stop power is in the front discs, I'd get them where they need to be first and then sort out the other issues on the rears. That way you know the plumbing is working properly and move on from there.
     
  20. ECIGUY
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 111

    ECIGUY
    Member

    Give me a call. Ralph 860-872-7046
     
  21. DaCoupe
    Joined: Mar 25, 2010
    Posts: 15

    DaCoupe
    Member

  22. ironpile
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 915

    ironpile
    Member

    Gravity bleeding seldom is enough. Need to pressure bleed them. Also if it should be a power system it will not stop well at all. MC`s must match system.
     
  23. Chalupa55
    Joined: Feb 3, 2008
    Posts: 152

    Chalupa55
    Member
    from So-Cal

    Ok this may sound stupid as it was something that happened to me on my 55' in High school. I bought new shoes for the fronts and rears, installed the rears first adjusted up with the drum on only and everything spun fine. As soon as you put the wheel on and tightened you could'nt turn the wheels by hand. Everything fit perfect and I could'nt figure out why, ended up I accidently put the front shoes on the back they were wider of course. I'm just wondering if the shoes that are on the rear are to wide.
     
  24. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    Well these damn brakes are pissin me off. been out here for 2 hours trying to figure this out. Now I was just about to post exactly what chalupa just said. This is exactly what mine is doing. No drums, it spins fine. Put the drums on, it spins fine. Put a wheel on and HAND tighten lug nuts and I can still hand spin it a full revolution. As soon as you tighten the lugs on either side though, I cant even get a half spin out of the wheel.

    So while there may be other issues to tackle, I definitely have a problem here with the drum brakes. There is definite drag with everything together. I did pull the drums and have the wife press the brakes, the work perfect both sides, each shoe opens up....dont know WTF. I am going to go check and see if the shoes I have are 2 different sizes or what and will get back.

    I also put the drum on as loosely as I could get it while still being lined up with the lugs. I was able to get under the car and shine a light in and see. No suprise the shoes are contacting the drums as you slide them on. I have the adjusters in as far as they will go.

    What the hell guys?
     
  25. Drive Em
    Joined: Aug 25, 2006
    Posts: 1,748

    Drive Em
    Member

    Install a couple of washers on each stud under between the drum and axle and install the wheel and tighten it. If it now spins freely, you do have a brake offset problem in that the drum is setting in too deep for the backing plate you have.
     
  26. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    I think your rear brake shoes are too wide, or they are not sitting flat against the backing plate.

    I'm suspecting your "new" shoes are wider then what was originally intended to be used with your backing plates/ drum combo. You also need to be sure both shoes are sitting against the top post when in the return position, any gap indicates either the e brake cable is not completely released, or some other issue. While I'm thinking about it, are the brake shoe contact spots (the places where the shoes sit against the backing plates) on the backing plates flat, or do they have some ridges worn in them? Might be such a thing as the contact spots have a build up of old brake dust/crusty dirt holding the shoes out just enough to bind the shoes against the front surface of the drum (not the shoe contact surface). That would effectively pinch the shoes between the backing plate and the drum. It would be magnified when the lug bolts are tightened. Gene
     
  27. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I will have to try this tomorrow, but this really sounds like the problem here, the offset. If thats the case with that, then what? I still dont understand how you can tell what drums will fit what plates.

    By the way I have confirmed its a 15/16" bore master...part number is NM1614 from autozone.
     
  28. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I took some pics, maybe someone can see something going on here.

    Drum depth

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Shoe width both sides

    [​IMG]

    Adjuster I am using

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2010
  29. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,511

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'd follow what he said to do to the letter as it is damned closed to what I would have told you to do.

    I'll say this, I never heard of "gravity bleeding" until I came on the HAMB and it seems that only amateurs practice or advocate this. It might work if everything is down hill from the master cylinder but each and every time there is a rise in he level of the line or a hump for the line to go over the air bubbles may get stuck and not flow with the fluid. It might suffice to get most of the air out until your helper gets there to help finish the job but you still need to either have someone pump the brakes while you bleed them or use a pressure bleeder.

    Do as 440Roadrunner said and crank the adjusters down so that the drums don't turn and bleed the brakes properly and then back the brakes off the ten clicks that someone else suggested and see what you have.

    Before "self adjusting brakes" one of the standard service station jobs was adjusting the brakes when a car came in for a lube an oil change and the standard way to do it was to turn the adjuster until you couldn't turn the wheel and then back the adjuster off ten clicks.
     
  30. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,511

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't see anything wrong with the way you have the shoes and hardware. You do have the star wheels on the correct sides of the car? If they are wrong they will back the brakes off instead of adjust them.

    I don't see anything in the photos of the drum that indicates that they are rubbing the edge of the shoes when you tighten the wheels down and am assuming that they are the drums that came with the axle originally. They also look good enough for a standard old throw some new shoes on it and go brake job so they should be ok as far as that goes.
     

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