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Customs Tingia Maroon???Betancourt Merc..

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jarzenhotrods, Sep 24, 2008.

  1. Jarzenhotrods
    Joined: Feb 20, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Jarzenhotrods
    Member
    from .......

    Ok..I am going to be repainting my car next month and am trying to come up with a color that is close or is exactly like the Betancourt Merc Maroon..I have talked to Rik on here and he has been very graciuos in helping me try to find what the color is. They called it Tingia Maroon...Any type of help with a color would be great...here is a pic that Rik colorized if this helps out any...

    [​IMG]
     
  2. kkoacolonel
    Joined: Oct 27, 2005
    Posts: 964

    kkoacolonel
    Member
    from Union,NJ

    I beleive the the color was "titian maroon" It was a 54 Buick color.
     
  3. cleatus
    Joined: Mar 1, 2002
    Posts: 2,277

    cleatus
    Member
    from Sacramento

    I think that the auto publications back in the day commonly misspelled the name of the color. I've seen it called everything from Titan Maroon. Tahitian Maroon, Tingia Maroon, Titian, etc. but like the colonel said, I think the real name was Titian.
     
  4. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,793

    Rikster
    Member

    Titian maroon (Red on the chart) is a Buick color and was available in 1954. However the Bettancourt Merc was redone in 1953.. so then it would have been Mandarin Red... Perhaps Barris did use one of these colors and mixed it with gold powder and renamed it Tingia.... or perhaps it was misspelled like Cleatus mentioned.

    1953

    [​IMG]

    1954

    [​IMG]
     

  5. Terry O
    Joined: Oct 12, 2004
    Posts: 1,060

    Terry O
    Member

    Titian Red used on Buick's 1954.
    Tahitian Red used on Buick's 1956
    Two Different colors.

    Terry
     
  6. Jarzenhotrods
    Joined: Feb 20, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Jarzenhotrods
    Member
    from .......

    Thanks guys for the help....Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt the Matrenga Merc painted Mandarin Red...That makes sense then I guess...they almost look like the same color however with the gold powder in their like Rik says would achieve the desired results on the Betancourt Merc..
     
  7. cleatus
    Joined: Mar 1, 2002
    Posts: 2,277

    cleatus
    Member
    from Sacramento

    You sir, are an amazing font of kustom info.

    In Barris's Kustom Techniques of the 50s vol. 3, page 46 -regarding the Bettancourt Merc, he does say "We then made all the window frames before applying numerous coats of Tingia maroon lacquer."

    It does seem to be written in his own words, so I'd say he probably knew the correct name for the color. Too bad he didn't mention if it was a custom mix.

    Also interesting that Buick changed the color and the name from Titian to Tahitian after a couple years - that explains what I had all along just thought was people getting the name mixed up.
     
  8. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,793

    Rikster
    Member

    On one of the Barris DVD's there is a few seconds of footage of the Bettancourt Mercury in Tingia Maroon. TIts a moving image and the car is never showing completely... but I have captured several images of the footage and pasted them together to get the most complete shot of it. The colors are way to bright on the movie and I tried to tone them down a bit...

    Here is one of the images captured from the DVD....

    [​IMG]


    And here are the three images combined and some color correction done to it... Its very hard to work with these over saturated colors and blurry image.. but this is the best I could do.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Remember too that color reproduction form film to magazine was pretty primitive. Read the article in the newest Rodders Journal about the Bakan 32 to gain some real insight into this phenomenon. I do know that an old (in his late 70's) friend of mine told me he painted his roadster Titian Red because he had seen it on the Betancourt car, for whatever that's worth.
     
  10. Jarzenhotrods
    Joined: Feb 20, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Jarzenhotrods
    Member
    from .......

    Thanks guys for the input...Rik you are the best thanks for that clip that you worked on..it helps me out a little more. hotroddon I have that current issue of The Rodders Journal..I havent got to that article yet but will deffinately read it tonight...Looks like you guys narrowed it down to Titan Red Or Mandarin Red...Rik you say gold pwder was used in the mix..Is that mixed into the base or the clear..
     
  11. atomickustom
    Joined: Aug 30, 2005
    Posts: 3,408

    atomickustom
    Member

    Barris did indeed make up names for the colors they mixed (and probably even the ones that they didn't). It just sounded so much more deluxe to say "organic seafoam something or other" than "'53 Chevy green."
    That's why my car is painted "organic onyx" and "satin smoke"! (It just sounds so much more sexy than "flat black and gray primer")

    At least some of the kustoms of that era were indeed painted the dark GM reds with gold powder mixed in. Just don't expect it to look exactly like the photos (as hotrodden pointed out). I'd think the gold would shift the color to the more bronze tones.
     
  12. kkoacolonel
    Joined: Oct 27, 2005
    Posts: 964

    kkoacolonel
    Member
    from Union,NJ

    Dave,in regards to your last post,my dad has a 53 Chevy,that was originally "Seafoam Green".When he restored the car in '79,the color thats on it now is a '79 Cadillac green,I forget the name,but its like seafoam green.I also like the terms you used to describe the colors of your car.
    Now the colors on my '51 Chevy HT,are "Moonlight Cream" and I guess "Tuxedo Black".Where they get the "cream" from.I have no friggin idea.You look at the car and its "yellow".Joe
     
  13. atomickustom
    Joined: Aug 30, 2005
    Posts: 3,408

    atomickustom
    Member

    The best factory color name I ever heard was for yellowish-tan paint on a 1973 Olds Cutlass. The name of the color was "yellow tan"! Now that's truth in advertising.
     
  14. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal


    Hey,

    The "gold pwder" quoted would most likely have been mixed in with the
    base Red colour. Had the powder been mixed into the clear coat, the
    final finish would have been a much more Bronze cast.
    The base coat/ clear coat (BB/CC) paint systems we use today did not
    exist when this vehicle was orginally built. The Barris/Ayala painter pro-
    bably mixed the gold into the red base and went with that. Unless it was
    shot in lacquer, it's doubtful there was any clear used, as clear wasn't
    generally used in synthetic enamel, and acrylic enamel wasn't available
    until the late fifties. The polyurethane and urethane finishes were 70s &
    80s paint technology, and don't look anything like the finishes used in the
    50s, when shot upon a vehicle.
    I would stear clear of the BB/CC paint finishes if you're building a 'true-
    kustom', as these finishes are for OEM vehicles, 'street rods' and those
    who don't know any better!

    Swankey Devils C.C.
    "Meanwhile, back aboard The Tainted Pork"
     
  15. turdytoo
    Joined: May 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,569

    turdytoo
    Member

    I have been chasing a '50's color that I remember from my experiences as a kid with the Bakan / Richard Strock coupe. Recently at Sam's Town Tunica run I saw a chopped '48 Merc that had a color that looked right to me. The owner told me it was a 2000 BMW red. Give it a look.
     
  16. Chad s
    Joined: Oct 6, 2005
    Posts: 1,717

    Chad s
    Member

    In my 1951 Custom Cars Annual, it describes the entire painting methods of the Barris shop. The process does involve many coats of color, and then (if I remember correctly) 5 coats of clear lacquer. I dont think it discusses the gold powder.

    I dont think its fair to say that urethane BB/CC ansolutely cant look good. All of Kurt McCormics cars (Alcorn merc, 41 Westerguard caddy, Zarro Merc, etc), are all done in urethane bb/cc for the restorations.
     
  17. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,793

    Rikster
    Member

    Some of these techniques might always remain a mystery... in another Barris interview I read about Barris mentioning this article in the 51 Custom Cars Annual and how they did not really wanted the people to know what they really did on the paint-jobs. They wanted it to sound mysterious.

    I have read several times about the gold powder, but I just cannot recall if it was added to the color or clear. My guess is the color, since a lot of times no clear was used, and if a clear was used and the gold was mixed with it the outcome would not be a deep dark hue.

    The Matranga Merc color was discribed as a Super high-gloss Royal Maroon lacquer finish with gold iridescent highlights resulting in a dark bloody color.

    I dont think it would make sense to give George a call and ask him about it... he probably does not remember anything else but the things he has been written in his books in the last 15 or so years, and besides that he would probably charge you for the info.

    But perhaps it might be an idea to see if you can find Dick Bertolucci and ask him about the colors he used.

    His Bertolucci maroon is dicribed by him as a 1948 Chevy Oxford Maroon with Venus Martin No. 9 gold powder added.

    [​IMG]


    I have tried to find some ore info on the 38 Chevy custom Dick built by contacting his daughter by email... but no such luck so far. But perhaps it might be easier for you guys in the States to contact him. I heard Dick is a great guy who loves to talk about the old days.

    www.bertoluccis.com

    I also have a phone number... but I'm not sure if thats still good or not
    Bertolucci's Collection. 1717 Stockton Boulevard
    Sacremento, California 95816 (916) 454-4433
     
  18. Thanks guys, I'm very interested in this as well.
     
  19. crosleykook
    Joined: Feb 15, 2006
    Posts: 186

    crosleykook
    Member
    from sackamento

    I may seem him at the 60th anniversary event at his shop on Sunday-- I'll see if I can ask him about the '38. His daughter remembered emailing you at some point when she first saw your site-- she showed it to Dick and he was stoked!
     
  20. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,793

    Rikster
    Member

    That would be really great.

    Yes she emailed me, but then I was in the middle of rebuilding our new-old house and did not have internet connection for weeks. So it took me a long time before I could respond... I never heard back from here then.
     
  21. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,793

    Rikster
    Member

    Aperently the Venus Martin powder is still beeing made... I could not find any reference for the number 9.... but perhaps worth looking into it. The Venus Martin is on the bottom left.

    Metal Powders
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  22. Chad s
    Joined: Oct 6, 2005
    Posts: 1,717

    Chad s
    Member

    WOW WOW WOW, Rik, you just solved what I thought was a big mystery. I may have to order some of this stuff and try some test shots with it.
     
  23. Jarzenhotrods
    Joined: Feb 20, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Jarzenhotrods
    Member
    from .......

    Thanks Rik...I have been looking for the powder since we talked with no avail, but now I know and will order some for the paint job...THANKS RIK you are a great help..
     
  24. atomickustom
    Joined: Aug 30, 2005
    Posts: 3,408

    atomickustom
    Member

    I could be wrong about this (and it wouldn't be the first time) but I recall reading at least once that they mixed gold PAINT into the dark red (not powder). That was a reference to the Matranga Mercury. Possibly in Ganahl's "The American Custom Car." I may have read a phrase like "gold metallic" and just assumed they meant paint rather than the actual metallic powder.
    I only mention this because I can definitely imagine George Barris claiming to use gold powder in his paint jobs to make it seem more mysterious AND more big-ticket.
    Has anyone asked Junior Conway??
     
  25. Jarzenhotrods
    Joined: Feb 20, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Jarzenhotrods
    Member
    from .......

    Just called the place for the powder...I think its decent deal..$34.00 per 16oz..
     
  26. David Totten
    Joined: Nov 21, 2005
    Posts: 248

    David Totten
    Member

    Venus made powders in Gold. Bronze and Silver I still have some of these from the 60s they worked very well in paint to make metallics and in clears to make gold and bronze colors fro scallops and panels. These powders also came in different grades of coarseness.
     
  27. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey Chad,

    I wouldn't say that Mr. McCormick's restoration paint jobs don't look good
    (given what he has tied up in paint alone, they should!) but I wouldn't
    say they look correct! No base coat/ clear coat (BB/CC) urethane paint
    job I have ever seen, or shot, has looked anything like any nitrocellulose
    or acrylic lacquer job I have shot or seen. Not even those with many coats
    of clear and coloursanded. And no, the Pyroxylin enamels, in use prior to the late fifties ,don't look like a BB/CC paint job either! It's like the differ-
    erence between vinyl upholstery; today there exists some very well made
    vinyls that feel, and look much like leather upholstery, but they are not
    leather.
    The subject of over restored paint has been rageing on the antique &
    classic side of the isle for sometime now. With people like Bruce Myers
    and Kurt McCormick dragging old Kustoms into the public eye, it was only
    a matter of time before it wound up on our front lawn, much like the steamy pile that it is.

    Swankey Devils C.C.
    "Meanwhile, back aboard The Tainted Pork"
     
  28. Jarzenhotrods
    Joined: Feb 20, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Jarzenhotrods
    Member
    from .......

    Correct me if Im wrong...but I have heard that lacquer can not stand up to heat..I live in Las Vegas and I drive the car quite often. I have heard that it will start to crack very soon because of the heat out here. If this is not true I will definately be shooting it in lacquer. If it this is true I dont think I really have a choice but to paint it in base coat/ clear coat. Unless if I want to be repainting it every couple of years...

    I know some of the paint jobs may not look "original" using the modern paints nowadays but my understanding to is that it is illegal to sell lacquer in some states..
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2008
  29. atomickustom
    Joined: Aug 30, 2005
    Posts: 3,408

    atomickustom
    Member

    Lacquer just doesn't hold up. Colors fade, and in the sun you get it any clear will crack. When I was a kid all the really beautiful custom lacquer jobs would start to crack within a couple years unless they were kept inside during the day. The only cars that looked like new after 5 years were the ones that were never driven.
    Perhaps there is some wizard on the HAMB who knows how to make a traditional lacquer job last? (Some way of blocking the UV??)
    You might want to start another thread to ask.
     

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