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Projects Timm builds a model A

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Tim, Mar 8, 2016.

  1. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Making a little progress at a time, my little girl takes up pretty much all of my time that I’m not at work currently.

    Should have some photos later tonight or maybe later this week of progress but in the mean time maybe swing by my friend Austin’s new build thread.

    He’s new to the hamb and trying to get a feel for it. He’s building Beaners old model A into a flathead powered gow job hopefully in time for the hamb drags

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...can-a-beans-my-29-ford.1092972/#post-12393320
     
  2. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    E743B86F-0084-498B-B22A-12B8F052C5F3.jpeg Alright let’s see if I can and sneak an update real quick. What you see is basically where I’m at.

    Mocked up waiting to drill holes, then bolt together and weld.

    Beaner and I decided that these 3/8 wing nuts would do the job with some matching washers and runners.

    Not sure what order these photos are in so I’ll just not caption them as I go. 8078C62C-A726-42D0-A7CA-3ED45AE4690B.jpeg Everything clamped together checking for clearances. I had to shift everything over to clear the front and back rocker arms are they are pretty big and the cover tapers towards the ends. 61503CDA-46BD-44FC-88DA-5A5AA87C38A1.jpeg mocked up after doing the move it around dance and making the second cut. 31D03774-8921-40F5-BDB3-3B7DAD8EF0B1.jpeg My original first cut drifted to one side so this time I mad several small notch cuts and cut to them making the slice a few sections and easier to keep in line.

    Oddly enough the amount of drift in the First city is how much I needed to slant the short end to clear the front rocker.

    Thankfully the cover is tapered in such a way that it just look s tiny bit curvier on one side and a little flatter on the other. I doubt it’ll even be noticeable to even me. 6189D8F8-B06C-4495-83F3-DEA467B014F1.jpeg This photo is where I did a happy dance.

    Even with the stock cover on its a very tight scraping fit to get the valve cover on. It hits the flange we’re the thermostat sits.

    Originally I had planned to prune that flange some before I realized that under all that crust the neck comes off the head AFACBDE5-71F6-46B0-9390-7778434C8AD7.jpeg so a quick google and a spacer that new you can find on eBay is what most people running one of the very few aftermarket valve covers use to clear everything 88F05D55-1A9C-4FB5-AC01-388C7703AFF1.png
    But some how it the slice and dice it seems I’ve gained just enough room that it all clears and I shouldn’t have any issues getting it on and off.

    Worse case I make have to shave the top like I originally planned but I think I might be ok.

    Get this cover swap all sorted and the next step is pulling the tank out of the cowl to get masters and steering mounted.

    Probably be this summer as I need to turn my attention to the big dent in the 46 finally
    But we’ll see. This cars pretty fun to mess with.
     
    Jet96, Runnin shine, brEad and 2 others like this.
  3. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Sorry for all the typos, I’d go back and fix them but I doubt I’ll have time lol
     
  4. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Man, You've done a lot of work here. I like your build. Got a Fronty cover too but have decided not to use it on the 153 I'm building. Tom Lowe makes both a valve cover and side cover. Here's pictures of a Frontinac on one.
    153-2.jpg 153-4.jpg
     
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  5. Love that Fronty cover.
     
    Tim likes this.
  6. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    @Six Ball he makes one that fits? Also is that a banger intake some how adapter to a Chevy motor? I feel like I have more questions after seeing that lol

    What’s with the breather where the fuel pump used to be?

    Got a link to his stuff?

    My front cover just needs welded back together and it’s ready to bolt on :)
     
    Dannerr likes this.
  7. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    I stole those pictures from somewhere maybe from another thread on this site. I only have this last one. Someone might recognize it. I had not considered shortening my Fronty cover I thought I could fit it with an adapter plate and a water jacket spacer. The sides on my cover are not straight so the aluminum plate I bought is not quite wide enough where it bulges. I could fix that maybe? I tried to shorten a GMC cover but the metal is thin, they are not as straight as I thought, and my skills were not up to the task. Trying to grind the welds I kept going through. 6 cuts and 4 welds. I have a heavier/thicker cover now that will work with 2 cuts and one weld. I can't use the stock or Mercruiser covers because they don't clear the roller rockers. I probably could use a spacer. The one Tom Lowe makes would probably work. It is far nicer than the Mercruser. I got one if his side covers. It's very nice and well worth the price. The side cover in the above pics is Mercruiser.

    The Burns intake I believe is for a Ford banger possibly port adapted through the head flange plate. I can't see any evidence to cutting and welding.

    The breather where the fuel pump mounts looks like a Moon breather with some kind of adapter. Something he made or refitted. Since I have to use an electric fuel pump any way I'm using the fuel pump hole for the oil fill access. Using a 181 crank #2 rod is too close to the furl pump lobe on the cam and I had to take some of the lobe off. .040" over bore and the 181 crank = 175 ci. The stock head can get the same treatment with lumps in the intake ports, screw in studs, larger valves, port work, decking, as the 194-292 six heads. These little guys are 2/3 of a 230 Chevy six with lots of interchange to the sixes and small blocks.

    Links to two guys I know who are making stuff for these engines.
    Tom Lowe who built my head: https://www.12bolt.com/store/p162/153_181_Finned_Side_Cover_Mercruiser.html
    Scott Marshall has lots in the works maybe a cross flow head soon:
    http://marshallsince62.com/index.html 2e5pflk.jpg s948739236638414765_p162_i1_w160.jpeg 4b762a3061729e166ef907cde8f74e2b.jpeg 100_1492.jpg 153-3.jpg
     
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  8. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    It would depend on where your firewall lands but if you had the room you could feasibly get away with out cutting the fronty cover and using a water neck spacer. Even the stock valve cover scrapes that damn thing lol.

    The cover is a good 1/4 thick so plenty of room to weld. If you shorten it you’ve got to watch the indents on the front and back corners because you run into interference there.

    Both sides do tapper the sides of the cover are not straight at all but how I cut it slanted to give me more rocker arm room it basically put a little more curve in one side and straightened the other side out. To anyone who didn’t know you’d never know. The only other one I’ve seen is in a green model T I saw online and you can see that they cut and welded it.

    Looking at the photo I’m wondering if the spacer on the head is there to carb/ fuel line/ linkage clearance? Looks like he snuck up on it with several layers and the covers pretty close to the carbs. I’ll Have to find a banger intake and measure I guess but I love the idea

    The one I saw in the T has an oil fill tube in the side plate but the fuel pump boss isn’t a bad idea.

    I’ve seen pcv set ups plummed into the fuel pump block off plates so I wonder if he’s doing some sort of pcv/ crank case ventilation with that breather?

    Anyhow I’m inspired :)

    Wish I could find some video of one of this hopped up motors running in something other than a boat or a car with 14:1 compression lol
     
  9. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Actually looking at that Front photo I think he may have spaced it out to get the header away from the cowl? The carbs look plenty far away at that angle
     
  10. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    I really dislike things that try to look like something else. Stuff like Stude or Olds valve covers on a small block, hidden disc brakes or even injectors that look like carbs but making something old style work somewhere else is OK with me. In '63-'64 I had a chance to buy a '25 Chevy roadster. I was an old race car a dry lake racer I think. It was in a garage and partly dismantled. The old hopped up 171 Chevy 4 sat on one side and a near new 153 sat on the other. I could have had it all for $250. Too much for me at the time. My roadster is sort of how I would have put it back together then when there was lots of cool stuff in wrecking yards and not as much after market. Totally possible to run across a Frontinac back then. I'm making some changes that are maybe just cosmetic. I'm using a remote oil filter and I am adapting a Pontiac Mallory V8 Dual Life distributer with a two piece cap partly to look older and it has vacuum advance not found on many after markets for the 153. Too bad it turned the wrong way.(a vacuum retard)
    I'm really impressed with what you have done here. Dropping your own axle is pretty cool and all the spring work. Real hot rodding!
     
    Tim likes this.
  11. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    And it’s all stick welded Haha :)

    Yeah I’m generally not a rocket valve covers on a Chevy guy or etc but this engines got to look old to fit the build and it’s way better looking than the stocker so I’m happy with it.

    I’m going to see what’s around for a dual banger intake but with my masters mounted on the fire wall and the motor pushed way back I don’t know that I’ll have room for two and still be able to stick to the level of ease of maintenance I want.

    I don’t want to have to take a carb off to get to a master cylinder bolt or something like that.

    I think I’ll end up running a single “big” 97 that Stromberg makes. 250cfm is right where I want to land for this thing and that’s exactly what they claim to be.

    Maybe I’ll use a single downdraft banger manifold? Other wise I’ll build one that’s got a nice organic flow to it.

    Back and forth on weather I’ll cut up some sbc headers to do what I want or not. Going to get a little further along and then draw on the some photos of it. Originally I had some tri Y, 180 deg equal length long tube headers in mind but with the alternator/ generator placement it gets pretty tight and I think I’d rather have something good looking that eak out 2 more hp.

    Guess we’ll see.

    I’ve been meaning to get back on the 46 but if it stays cold out much longer I might go ahead and cut the gas tank out of the cowl so I can move to the next set of mock ups
     
  12. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    It is fun seeing how someone else is dressing out a 153. Trying for an older but not Faux look. I like the fit you are getting with the cover. I plan on driving mine a lot so I'm using the "modern" 153. For plain cool I'd build a 171 '25 Chevy 4. I may build one to occasionally swap in.
    With your masters do you have room for side drafts? A pair of Carter YHs would look and run great. A single Weber DCOE 45 would be fine on one of there. Then there's this on eBay.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hilborn-Fuel-Injection-Single-Throat-Injector-Pair-Ford-A-B-4-cyl/202169570184?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  13. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    I’m going to use a pair of 46 ford masters mounted in the upper firewall using your standard anson knock off style swing pedals.

    I went back and forth with a friend with a tape measure last night and it looks like a banger intake is pretty close to the 153 but just off enough that it would take some head scratching to get it to bolt on.

    What I believe is happening in the photos you posted is a three layer adapter plate.

    I think it bolts to the head and then the studs in the adapter mount the intake. I think he used three plates slightly moving the intake port hole in each layer and then when it was bolted all together filed the transitions smooth. I’m curious if there’s a gasket inbetween each layer as it seems like a vacuum leak waiting to happen.

    I’ll post some comparison measurements today if I have a moment to do so.

    If I was lucky with air cleaners, mounted the carbs as close together as I can and more towards the center of the motor, creating more of a common plenum compaired to kind of an ir with a balance tube, I think it would clear everything.

    However I think it might look bad/ cluttered. I’ll get the masters mounted and do some mocking up but in my head I think it looks wrong.

    Spent the better part of the night looking at sbc headers that I could use and decided they all look to contemporary and I’d rather a set up with fewer bends over all, simple construction and large radius arch’s for the bends because that seems more in line with what could have been and will help sell the old look I’m shooting for. Though painfully enough I keep seeing them chromed in my head haha

    Gotta be reliable, easy to work on, but still look correct other wise it may as well be a Honda.

    Back to sketching and squinting :)
     
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  14. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Ok so here are some photos now in case anyone’s curious B7EB4870-4E79-482F-AC6E-1F300D390C21.jpeg this is more or less the measurements of the bolt holes for the banger intake

    B0297131-40C0-41FF-B769-CF9BBF229B86.jpeg
    The jist
    B7CF0622-06E6-4DA6-A4C7-9834E06AB554.jpeg The Chevy is roughly 12.5 where the ford is closer to 13 so not way off
    84AEF679-24C3-487D-AC3E-6F123E3125BE.jpeg And center of port to center of port is 8 1/2 ish where the ford is closer to 9.

    So really, probably close enough that an adapter could work with out much hassle.

    I think I’m leaning towards building an intake similar to the stock one I have out of round tube. The banger ones I find for a single carb look like the one shown here with a substantial riser and I’m just not into it for this build. I kinda want to keep it all right and compact.

    Thinking about it now I bet I could order a pre Made U bend of the correct outside diameter, add all the flanges and be ready to rock faster than building an adapter to run a banger intake.

    @Six Ball any opinions on heat risers/ water heat on the intakes for these motors? Most of the time these are warm weather cars and in our v8’s we block off the heat risers in the intake with no issues.

    I’m thinking the exhaust I have in mind will be so close to the intake that it’s more likely that I’d have issues with it getting to hot than to cold?

    Any inline guys reading have any opinions? @Rocky? You seemed to have messed with anything that burns gas. Thoughts?


    I’ve got a pretty neat idea firming up right now, just waiting on some confirmation on some measurements to see if it’ll actually work or not
     
    Dannerr likes this.
  15. Yeah, Tim. I have a thought. Not having an engineering education or background, I say adapt the intake and see how it works. If you're not happy with it, try something else but don't get stuck [paralyzed] to the point of inactivity by over thinking the whole thing. It's just a fuckin intake system for a little 4 banger.
     
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  16. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    The exhaust/water heat issue is a little different in inline and V8 engines. On a V8 the whole intake sits on top of the engine and naturally absorbs heat from the engine. Chevy sixes & fours used exhaust heat with the intake and exhaust manifolds bolted together. It's not totally a weather issue as much as vaporization - condensation issue. With the long runners of an inline, even a 4, hanging out in the air the fuel tends to condense and collect in the manifold or at least turn into droplets. While we strive to try to get a cool charge in the cylinders because more fits in that way we also want the fuel to be a vapor. The early 171 Chevy fours, up to '28, had a sheet metal piece in intake ports that swirled the charge in an attempt to keep it mixed. I have seen the base of carbs ice up in fairly warm weather. I have also seen inlines that seem to work just fine with no heat. Maybe they'd do better with heat. Most Ford Bangers seem to do fine. My intake was made from a 3X1 Offenhauser for a six. It was set up to bolt to the stock exhaust. It has a heat runner the full length. I converted it to water because my exhaust header doesn't have heat connections. The 270 GMC in my pickup uses exhaust heat through tubes from the Fenton cast headers. I't not an issue with short high speed runs or most wide open throttle operation but more at easy cruising speeds.
    There are header flanges made for these. I made one from a set of flanges for a 6. All that said Rocky is right my engine is still in pieces.
    100_1817.jpg 100_0855.JPG 100_0866.JPG
     
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  17. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    I havnt Made a whole lot of progress because I havnt a lot of time to get dirty the last few months, but I’ve got plenty of time to bench race and ask random questions.

    I was more or less just curious as I see about 50/50 with or with out added heat. Just something to talk about.

    The current draft in my head I feel pretty confident in staying warm enough but if it doesn’t it’ll be cheap enough/ easy enough to adapt to water or exhaust heat.
     
    KCTA Chris likes this.
  18. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Alright so this is 4 different photos at mostly different angles that I put together and edited so I’m sure the scale and placement isn’t right on but this is the jist of what I think I’m going to do.

    38316C29-6B8C-406C-8CD9-277F46EF4BB5.jpeg

    Cut down generator in place of the smallest alternator that I can hide in plane sight
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  19. There are plenty of lower-than-Tattersfield banger intakes, see here for inspiration: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/aftermarket-banger-intakes.662611/page-3
    I have an Iandola-intake, which I think is one of the lowest, see more here: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/dan-iandola.981446/
     
  20. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Pretty cool!

    With the tools I have it seems like building a similar intake from scratch would be more time effective than making the adapter to run the banger intake. I’m also trying to keep the carb pretty close to the valve cover to give me room to get at brake and clutch lines on the firewall.
     
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  21. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    It looks like the last post I did didn't stick.:confused: I like your concept photo. Using some small block stuff on these is cool.
     
    Tim likes this.
  22. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Just thumbed threw the new issue of hop up that showed up in the mail.

    Makes me think a little roadster with the same power would be pretty cool. Guess I’ve got to buy a pair of manifolds to get the one I want, may as well hang onto the other one just in case ;)
     
  23. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    That's where I was lucky with my Black Widow header. I was buying a set and told the gut what I was doing with it. He he had one from a set where the right one was broken. I bought it for 1/2 the pair price. Now to make it fit.:)
     
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  24. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    That’s what I’m wanting photos of!
     
  25. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    So while I wait for my cast aluminum welding friend to get back to town and stitch this cover up ive been thinking about some more bits and pieces.

    I’ve decided to change over to a top shift trans like a 39 and bail on the side shift 46 box. It’s just less stuff to have to shove into the 5 pound sack. I’m still thinking a hydraulic set up with a slave cylinder, anyone have photos of how they set there’s up?

    @cactus1 has one on the new roadster but I think he’s running a different trans?

    Also will an intake like I’ve shown in my renderings stay cool enough to use any paint I might want to use or will it require a high temp coating like the exhaust manifolds? They are so close to each other in an inline engine that I’m curious and I want to make sure I’m not taking it all back apart after the first summer of driving to repaint it all.
     
  26. The roadster has a ‘39 toploader with a bracket of the rear mount for the push type slave. Dual masters and hanging pedals. Pretty slick.
     
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  27. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,354

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Remember a small block bell housing bolts up so almost any Chevy trans will fit. An S-10 T-5? The OD would be good. I found a Chevy to Studebaker adapter. I'm using a BW T86 with OD converted to Top shift with a Jeep T90 top plate. A lot of tinkering but cool. I really like the old BW ODs.
    Heat may be a issue with your intake but if you can get 1/2" or so clearance so high temp paint should work. Check the clearance on some Chevy six set ups. Maybe coating the exhaust would be wise. Are you thinking of painting the aluminum intake?
     
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  28. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,279

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Photos on your thread I assume?

    @Six Ball I’ve got a 46 trans in it already and bolted up to the torque tube, got all my clutch stuff ready to go, the 39 swap let’s me keep everything I already have and I won’t have to fuck around with column linkage.

    Trying to keep stuff as simple as possible and visually clean.
     
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  29. Maybe?? I can certainly take some more. The floor is back in though now so not as easy to see unfortunately.
     
    razoo lew likes this.
  30. Here’s the best one I have on my phone. I don’t see any from the top unfortunately. 3A1DA9FA-19E0-4EDF-AB07-4AE25FB77F9A.jpeg
     
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