Are you trying to say that was never done in the smokers? I first heard that trick from Garlits. The result is that it comes back to the DRIVER to win.
Of course it was done! And at that point, the "smoker" became smokeless and evolution gave us the slider. It's not the technology that these guys are bemoaning, it's the lack of show...the roostertails and swervy black tracks that were the essence of the smoker days.
A water burn out pass then back up and then a e.t. pass? Are you fuckin kiddin me. You dont see it here or on the other smoker slick thread. What your talkin about is no different that every race you see every day. Except that they roll to the tree with water on their tires. Instead of just lighting them in the water a few feet back? FORGET ABOUT THE WATER!!!! Have your vintage push/support car take you up. Start it , NO WATER, go to the tree. Put the pedal to the floor and let the clutch out. Then steer the damn thing! You determine the winner by who got there first. Every car has to have a LOCKED UP CLUTCH. NO WATER, NO BURN OUT. Photo is of my pass at the hamb drags. Point and shoot like modern cars? I dont think so. This is fun.
A locked clutch becomes a slider with just a skillful left foot. Spent my youth street racing stick cars and getting them hooked and gone just that way. Look, I am in TOTAL agreement with the basic concept. I LOVE the idea, and have thrown this around since I built my first N/TF car back in 1992! (Never did get to run it because of chassis issues...but that's another story) I'm not trying to take any wind out of the sails here, I'm attempting to find ways to not only make it work, but also have longevity AND credibility. Bottom line, if it's a "race", the guy who makes the least smoke will win every time. The guy who makes NO SMOKE will completely dominate. Cars have to, and will do burnouts before their runs. My idea turns that common ritual into an actual side by side competition. Your version applies to old style diggers only...mine can be applied to ANY type of racecar. Your version is a special exhibition that can only be enjoyed infrequently by people lucky enough to be close to your venue...my concept can be applied everywhere all the time.
So let me get this straight you want both cars do a John Force burnout, then make a E.T. run? I wasn't there for actual Drag racing in the '60's. I always thought for the the tire smoke was because the rails got pushed to the line, then fired into it. You actually had to drive the car and work the clutch. They never had reverse like todays. All the other classes could do their burnouts an return to the line under their own power. Not having to be pushed back by the crew.
No, the tire smoke deal was a period between 57 or so and 65 or so, where tires, track surfaces and drivelines had not yet caught up with the ability to make horsepower with a blown fuel engine. Let me throw one other thing in here...it's about the show itself. Let's say we had what Tim, Brian and the others are proposing. Push the car to the line, drop the hammer and go. How long does that actually take...20 seconds to push up and light, turn it around and let it warm/stage...another 20 seconds...7 seconds for the run (Keep in mind a street driven street car has just run 6.90 this last week, after completing a 1000 mile trip..and this was through the mufflers) Let's be generous, and call it 1 minute of running time in front of the spectators per pair of cars. If we have 6 cars booked for this show, each making 2 laps, that is a total of 6 minutes of action for this feature event. The fans are in the seats for 3 or 4 hours...this can be BAD. It was an entirely different thing back in the day when there would be 30 or 50 Top Fuelers on the grounds, and the action was rapid fire. Calling upon my years of dealing with track owners and promoters and the many match race Funny Cars and Altereds I was associated with over the years, I know that this is a major consideration when they book a show. It's bad enough that the typical Fuel car is only running for 2 1/2 minutes per run, but you guys want to chop that by nearly 2/3rds! AGAIN..I AGREE with the concept and the SENTIMENT....but I also know the idea is going to need some major tuning before it can ever be viable.
Right I understand that. What you were saying sounded like they were going to do a burnout contest then run. Just trying to understand what you're talking about. Wish a nostalgic class would be born. I would love to build a car for that. Dad and I have been kicking around the idea of building his old D/MP.
Man I dunno what all the fuss is about I have been following the whole Condor Armageddon top fuel things I dont even remember how I tripped over it but wow what a great artist awesome painter Blah blah blah. Would have loved to afford his wheel conversion for my bike back when I had one. Any way the guy wants to ride the lightning let em if he can talk folks into helping out hey I heard of worse cults. Me I would like to hang out draw get some pointers with anyone like him and by that I mean someone with vision and talent.
I'm still trying to figure out who is going to push me back after this 1/8 mi burnout with no reverser. Brian? Lippy
Lippy - if you fly me in I'll push you back the full quarter mile. Rubber band - Mickey Thompson considered this for indoor stadium drag races. And the irony of all this is that Tim's PC is busted and he may be totally oblivious to all the ruckus he's been causing here on the HAMB. The poor guy has to go to the freeking LIBRARY to get on the net. Tim is the Frank Zappa of modern FED's! -90% Jimmy
Don't think of it a a "burnout"...think of it as a heads up traction-less race...There is no difference whatsoever between that and an actual "smoker" run. Once again...you light the cars...they roll through the water and STOP. A flag man steps between them and waves them off. First car to the 8th wins that segment of the race...and it would be a race! They back up, stage at the tree, and then run for the quarter. No matter how I look at this, I can't see how it wouldn't be fun for either the drivers or the fans.
George Hurst was pushing for a deal...after he bought Airhart Brakes, where there would be a stop sign at the 1/8th mile mark...the cars would have to come to a complete stop at the 1/8th, and then run for the traps from there. Can't see that happening with fuelers, but it could be a real interesting competition for the Tuner crowd.
He's building on a Donovan block and can't afford to get a $4-500 PC or even $199 iphone? Man, he is old school.
That sounds a little risky. 1000+horse car rolling through water then firing down a 1/8 mile. Would be like driving on ice. I've seen people having to hold the cars while doing a burnout.
The idea of an 1/8 mile "race" with wet tires is just strange to those of us who were there, especially in Southern California. That sound like a gimmick, and no more. Many of us come from a time when they push-started the cars, the crew pushed them back and forth until they were lined up properly, the driver staged to car...and then they were off either with a flagman, lights or a Christmas tree. Anything short of that is just pretending. My hats off to anyone who's determined to finish their projects. Good luck to you all
I love it!Every year I still go to a couple races and I really only go just to see and hear all the cars.Never really pay attention to points whos in the hunt and all that.The nostalgia drags are the best for me even though I still go to the other races as well.I will never be able to afford to build something like this but I am extremely happy that people like him take the time and passion they have to do it and put it down the track for all of us to see.Thanks Tim Conder
Either way, just race the way you want, however you want. The great thing about now is there are tons of options of how to do it - cheap, do it yourself all the way up to mega bucks corp. Just do what you want, promote that as you will and let others worry about what they want to do. No need to go bad mouthing how others might want to race. I don't think Tim is bad mouthing per se, but skirting the line a little with the semi rant. He enjoys a more traditional racing style and that is what most of us here like so that is good. Traditional racing also involves a lot of personal hard work with little chance of any kind of financial reward and usually a lot of the opposite. However, in the old days, one could theoretically make a few bucks or keep it reasonable anyway. That is because it was the top form of racing in its day. Now, it isn't the top anymore, so you have to do it for love, not the money. If you want the money, you have to pony up with the big boys. If not, get over it and do what you have to do to do it for the love. Either way, let each choose his own. At least it is all still racing. I don't race, never have. Not really into it myself personally. I like driving slow actually. But to watch, I do definitely prefer old style racing and just can't get into the current stuff. Like Tim says, just kind of boring for some reason. With that said, it takes huge balls to get in a car like that today and hit those kinds of speeds - huge (ladies included). Pretty unbelievable actually. You will never catch me being able to do it. I'll be the first to admit that. But, to me, cars are more than max. hp and speed. At some point, when you can go too fast, you leave the charm behind and I think that is what has happened to modern drag racing. Unbelievable fast, but just not that charming anymore. Still hats off to the guys and gals who can do it. I hope they can keep going and enjoying it just like everyone else doing other styles of racing.
That video had me going...f@ck yeah man...Thats what i'm talking about...I wanna buy him a beer. Alot of really kool points were made & why the passion is lost in this hobby!!
I know EXACTLY what you're saying...and I have the utmost respect and reverence for the people and era you're referring to..BUT, what I'm proposing is no more of a gimmick than having drivers intentionally smoke their tires when that act defies the logic, technology and knowledge of the modern era. My money is actually going where my mouth is. The twin engine Altered I'm building will no doubt blaze the hoops right through the lights...just the way you'd expect 880 cubic inches of blown fueler to do...but it's a "justified" show. It's an exhibition car that has as its feature attraction, more horsepower than it can possibly hope to use under any circumstances. I'm building this car purely for its "holy shit" factor and the spirit of the device is totally in mojo with the era you're talking about. Nobody wants to see the show aspect of our sport revived more than I do. It's something I've been trying to accomplish in one way or another since the 80's. I booked match race funnycar shows that required the cars to do 1/8 mile burnouts and at least 2 hops before they staged...I helped form a Fuel Altered circuit back in the early 90's to try and bring that sort of action to the mid-west and east coast at a time when it absolutely did not exist in any form. Bringing back the show aspect of our sport is something I've devoted thousands of hours, countless dollars and a zillion miles to...I GET IT. Like I said in a previous post, we now live in an era where quiet, street driven cars run in the 6 second zone....I KNOW, I KNOW...boring to watch..YES! But ours is a sport of numbers, and it's gonna be very difficult for the paying spectator to square the facts away and accept that 7 second fuel cars are better than 6 second street cars...ditto for the track owners and promoters who actually put these shows together. I practically grew up at the foot of Vinny Napp who along with people like Bill Doner INVENTED the match race madness/thrill show days that were the high water mark for our culture. This Smoker thing is something I've been giving a whole lot of deep thought to over the last couple of months...thanks to people like Condor..and I think the idea has TONS of merit...but for it to actually work, and function, and be a viable attraction here in the 21st century, I think it's gonna need some modification from the original premise. I should also add here, that I have, at times actually put food on my table and paid for my housing through drag racing. I actually know how to have a race car pay the bills without ever have a lick of sponsorship or winning a round of competition...been there and done it..and with the right venue, I know that I could do it again...and that is the aspect of this Smoker thing that I'm most fascinated by. YES, it is VERY possible to run a fueler and turn a profit...that's everybodies dream, right? That's where I'm coming from.
You could just go to outlaw drag events like the Billetproof Hot Rod Eruption tour we had this year up in the PNW... People showed up with cars and raced 'em, heads up. Other people, like me, came and watched. The only person who made money was the track promoter, and that's cool with me, I got to go see some fun racing for the day with my daughter There were no sponsors or promotions, just drag racing. Professional drag racing is like Nascar: bloated and only a faint caricature of what once was. You'll never recapture the experience so why worry about it? Go out and build something completely new and stop bemoaning the past. If Tim Conder can do that then more power to him. Tip of the day: Once you start in with promotions and sponsorships, that's when it'll all go to crap.
My car won't have a reverser or a trans, it will be a double disc pedal clutch. Brian pushing me back was a smart ass remark. I intend to do as Brian is doing, drive around the water, stage the car and hammer it. I intend to have an onboard starter with a plug in in case I'm somewhere that I can't push start. It will have a 5lb fire bottle hidden somewhere, the chassis will be a five point cage and it will have a chassis tag. I will run this car where I can. I have a feeling my home tracks will be wondering what I'm doing running so many single runs. Till they figure it out.
Now you tell me I dont have to push you back. Damn I just spent $200 on a new outfit , just for that job. I cant wait to see you do it. It is exciting for me to hear that other people are jumpin in on the smoker thing. And for it to be a man with the credintials you have. YEEE HAAA!!!! It just seems like WHITE PUNK ON NITRO cant stop sayin ''water''. Come on WHITE PUNK , I respect your back ground and your knowlege of drag racin. But you keep talkin todays standards and water. Let go of some of it. Yeah I have friends with 6 and 7 second modern twin turbo street cars. And they might not give a shit what Im wantin to do. But I do know one thing. They all say " I wouldnt drive that fuckin car for nothing". So if you could get one of these to smoke the tires and go 200 would that be ok. And one more thing they arent gonna be booket at the same events anyway.
My name's actually Tony...you can call me White Punk if you'd like, but it takes alot of extra typing...... Ok, I'm probably wrong on this whole issue, because I'm approaching it from a different perspective than you guys are. My nitro background began with big show cars, and trying to make a living in that arena...and unfortunately, that sort of thing will tend to skew ones viewpoints towards the commercial and practical aspects of our sport. You guys are coming from an entirely artistic/purist place. No water...I got it...NO WATER!...I respect it...NO WATER. That said, you asked if I could get one of those things to smoke the tires and go 200, would that be OK. Take this for what it's worth....I'm not bragging, just tellin it like it is. I could get one of those things to smoke the tires and go 230...and do it on 3 gallons of fuel...and if the driver does exactly what I tell him to do, it'll never scuff a bearing, fuzz a plug or pinch a ring. I'll never go as far as to say that ANYTHING with a fueler is easy, or a slam-dunk...but I've spent a huge chunk of my life studying and working with these things, and I understand what makes them tick. Pay for my gas and a couple of burgers, and I'll be happy to demonstrate. You guys are on the right track though..and trust me, if you get it all going, I'll be one of your biggest fans. What kills me, is that I look at the set-ups you guys want to run, and I can see the fatal flaws. Tim's deal is going to freewheel at the hit, drop cylinders and then lug what's left when it tries to hook. It's gonna eat main bearings and pistons. Lippy's injected deal will start shooting ducks about 300 feet out and then motor through on 5 really unhappy cylinders. Your alky Small Block is the least self destructive piece out there, but you're going to end up beating the poor thing to death trying to ring up any sort of representative number. My water suggestion was more a way of dealing with these various combinations than any desire on my part to see wet drag slicks. If I had to throw one last thing at this thread, I'd say STUDY STUDY STUDY! Everything you want to do is very possible, and all of the information you need is already out there...but when you want to do something with a fueler, you have to be a fundamentalist FANATIC! If you want workable results, you will need to follow the formula EXACTLY, making allowances for parts that are no longer available, but staying as close as humanly possible. If it's the Surfers you choose to emulate, copy their combination EXACTLY. They used iron, you use iron..They ran a Vertex, you run a Vertex...they had X degrees of dump and whatever wheelbase, you need to have exactly X degrees of dump and that wheelbase. I will tell you first hand and with an assload of experience under my belt, that things which seem trivial or unrelated with a fuel car will turn around and make the entire combination unhappy and mean...like there's no way I can express in words how insanely important that mindset is. The Bitch-Goddess Nitro wants what she wants, when she wants it and how she wants it. She does not fuck around!
6 to 7 second modern street car? Really, can I see what one of those looks like? Curious. The Bugatti Veyron is a street car @ $2.5M, 1001hp full time 4wd, but does the 1/4 in only 10.2s at 143mph. It is is built for a bit more top end than 1/4 times, but still would like to see what can be driven on the street and can still do 6 and 7's. Maybe 1/8 mile times? Corvette C6 ZR1, 11.1s 1/4. Not saying it can't be done, but wondering what the hell are they driving on the street, funny cars?
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