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tig welding question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Joe Jackman, May 29, 2012.

  1. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    until you can properly hand feed a welding rod with your fingers is there any point in taking any classes or making test welds? i hope i can pick this up with time because i'm not very good at it.
     
  2. 36tbird
    Joined: Feb 1, 2005
    Posts: 1,142

    36tbird
    Member

    That part of TIG welding is common to gas welding. If you can find a TIG class in your area, definitely take it. If you can only find a class that offers gas, you might want to take it for the experience.
     
  3. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 4,420

    rockable
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The first thing you want to do is learn how to form a puddle, control the heat and walk the puddle. Until you learn to do that without touching the electrode to the work, you shouldn't pick up the filler rod. You can still make good welds without being able to feed the filler between your fingers. There were lots of them done before someone figured out that trick.
     
  4. Absolutely. You DO need to learn to feed rod, but studying and understanding the PUDDLE is the key to TIG welding. You can take 2 pieces of metal and do what is called a "fusion" weld with a TIG. Just melting the metal together with no filler rod added. This method is NOT structurally sound, and should only be used to work on torch mechanics; but it IS welding. The movement and heat control are the same with a fusion weld as when welding with fill rod. The rod is (kinda) like the icing on the cake.
     

  5. grovedawg
    Joined: Oct 20, 2009
    Posts: 451

    grovedawg
    Member
    from Heber, UT

    Practice doesn't make you perfect, but it makes you better. Learn to control the puddle, then add filler. And just keep practicing.
     
  6. wawuzit
    Joined: Jul 18, 2010
    Posts: 56

    wawuzit
    Member
    from tennessee

    There are two methods of TIG welding. Dipping and Walking the cup. Walking the cup is easier and you don't contaminate the filler wire by removing it or getting farther away from the cover gas.Dipping is hard to master. Try walking the cup. You make a semi circular motion and wash over the wire. Makes a nice weld, and it will Xray better.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIKudfYbZHo

    Feeding the wire while wearing welding gloves is hard to do. Walking the cup is the way to go. Beautiful welds !! Use your foot control and master that part...very important.
     
  7. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    have some questions on this video http://youtu.be/_rVqWeS4rbA

    can you get a nice stack of dimes with method one?

    in method two i've never seen anyone use fingers exactly like that. i think i might actually be able to pick that up vs the other finger method i've seen.

    is it okay to wear a mechanics glove when tig welding to get some feel over the wire?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  8. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,458

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    A good quality Tig weld is NOT a stack of dimes. The stack of dimes may be pleasing to the eye, but is very far away from a good functional flaw free weld.

    The stack of dimes style leaves an uneven edge to the weld which can lead to cracking under stress as each small corner can create a stress riser notch effect.

    A good Tig weld is smooth and has fine ripples, the edges are straight and nicely blended into the base metal.
     
  9. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    do you think it matters which rod feeding technique is used?
     
  10. Dane
    Joined: May 6, 2010
    Posts: 1,351

    Dane
    Member
    from Soquel, CA


    What he said. Make sure you're holding the torch and rod correctly, then practice every chance you get. It's the fastest way to get better.
     
  11. wawuzit
    Joined: Jul 18, 2010
    Posts: 56

    wawuzit
    Member
    from tennessee


    Most of the welders where I worked wore goatskin gloves. No two welders weld alike. Getting comfortable is important. If you're going for a Xray weld don't grind and hammer and do things that get you wound up. Calm down,get comfortable,make sure EVERYTHING is clean, set the heat and take your time. Xray welds are much different than production welds.
     
  12. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,458

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    While I have seen excellent results from skilled welders using the dip technique, I have always preferred the constant feed method for carbon steels and stainless steels.

    The rod is fed smoothly into the puddle as needed and stays there at all times till the weld is completed.

    The dip technique as well as buttering (directing the metal where you need it to go) is sometimes required on certain alloys like inconel and monel which are sluggish and don't flow well.

    I always tell my students to think of it this way.

    Think of the weld puddle as a pail of water. Which will be smoother, feeding the rod smoothly into the surface of the liquid, or dropping rocks one after another into the pail.

    Dipping can be like that especially if the rod melts off and a glob of metal falls into the weld.
     
  13. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,458

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    My personal feeling on this one is related to safety, burns namely. I say no way to this one. Mechanics gloves are made of nylon or polyester and you do NOT want to experience what these do to your skin when the burn or melt.

    Can we say severe burns ?

    Wear only proper fitting leather Tig welding gloves
     
  14. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    do you have any screen shots to post of your welds so i can see what they look like? any links to video of those using techniques you approve of and think would be helpful to me?

    maybe this?

    http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_proc/TIG/wire_feed_0609/TIG_wire_feed_extra.html
     
  15. 333tinman
    Joined: Oct 24, 2009
    Posts: 42

    333tinman
    Member
    from MASS.

    There a thing called a tig pen. it hold the wire and you roll a wheel to feed the wire. they sell them on line a buddy turned me onto them a few years ago.
     
  16. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,453

    oj
    Member

    You seem overly concerned with feeding the wire, do you have a disability or something? These guys are giving great advice, they may want to ammend it if we knew you were missing a couple fingers or something.
    Gas and tig are the same, the methods differ only in the mannor that the puddle is formed. There is probably a scientific difference at molecular level but for the guy doing the work the biggest different is heat. Gas welding radiates heat like crazy while tig focus' it and is relatively cool.
    I use goatskin on my right hand, left hand is bare - it is just personal preferance. You feel the wire easiest when you leave it at the leading edge, when you pull back with the torch the puddle will firm up with the wire embedded and you slide your fingers back for a new purchase - we are speaking of a few thousandths of an inch here - you don't try to feed the wire thru your fingers as it'll wiggle around a lot.
    I agree with the guy that said the stack of dimes isn't particularly good welding - it is pretty welding and folks think taht it is good because it is pretty.
     
  17. aaggie
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,530

    aaggie
    Member

    There is a website called www.weldingtipsandtricks.com run by Jody Collier. It is a wealth of information on all types of welding. Every week he sends out a 3-4 minute video of a new tip or procedure. It is free and you just sign up for the e-mail list. There are archives of all of the previous videos and loads of info.

    Check it out.
     
  18. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    true. i am concerned. when i have tried to feed the rod, like a friend of mine who is a welder showed me, i'm not able to do it smoothly and walk the rod all the way down like he does. last i checked i had ten fingers but unfortunately for me they don't work like his. i now see that his way of feeding the rod isn't the only way so i'm thinking about trying other ways because i really struggle to feed the rod consistently using the method he uses. if i can't feed the rod consistently and evenly i know i'm not going to get a decent looking weld bead.

    is there any difference between goatskin and pig skin tig gloves? is tillman a good brand?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  19. shawnspeed
    Joined: Sep 10, 2009
    Posts: 165

    shawnspeed
    Member
    from Attica Mi

    There is a huge difference between pig & goat skin gloves....I use pigskin on the mig welder, they are lighter than the traditional cow hide gauntlents like you would use on stick welding , but way heaver than a good goat skin gauntlet....if you have ever wore a fine buckskin leather glove , that is what a goatskin tig glove is like...also all of the above wire feeding methods work, and it is what you get comfortable with...but having Tig welded on cars & bikes for the past 20+ years, I can't think of too many parts where I have layed down a continuous bead long enough to need one of those techneques, on a regular basis....body work patch panels..1/4 -1/2" at a time....2x3 tube section frame rails 3-5" at a time....most brackets are maybee 1-3" at a whack....most home shoppers will not be doing 20" dia. sched 80 pipe& fittings on weld positioners, where you would need that type of skill...the only time I can specifically remember using said method was welding dump cans together for the Nascar Bush series when I was a young lad....and everything was tacked with 1" or less spacing , & heavily fixtured to control warpage & part placement...and even then you were starting and stopping to reposition the part, or yourself....giving you plenty of time to adjust the rod in your hand.....long and short of it ...start Tigging and try several ways of holding the torch, feeding rod, finger control, or foot....overall most important...MAKE YOURSELF AS COMFORTABLE AS POSSIBLE AND RELAX....welding out of position, and standing /kneeling/hanging from your boots will come with time...and thats the other part..seat time....it takes lots of inches of weld , in many materials & positions to get proficient...practice practice practice....that is why the above advice for a vocational nite class at a comm. colege is a good choice...good machines, hopefully good instruction , and practice time....and most will let you weld on projects that you bring in ....good luck , Shawn
     
  20. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Taking a class, from a good instructor, early on, will help you avoid learning bad habits that need un-learning.
     
  21. john~N~dallas
    Joined: Dec 30, 2009
    Posts: 412

    john~N~dallas
    Member

    I feed the wire between my middle finger and ring finger and push with my thumb.. it gives a little more dexterity especially with gloves on...
     
  22. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,230

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Like "which oil" or the woman asking "Do I look fat in this?", there's as many right as there are wrong answers. The one that matters is the one that makes you better. The pedal:

    Do you drive a car full throttle at all times? Of course not (unless you're drag racing!). You apply just enough pedal to get the metals "wet" and forming a puddle. Feeding the wire will come out of you like magic when you get the pedal gig mastered.

    Feeding the wire:

    Time and "wetness" are the guides. Too much time, all gone, not enough, booger welds and poor pentration.

    The missing link in instruction:

    That would be you. Anyone offering instructions or teaching is not looking at EXACTLY what you are. There's several things going on and the most common "I can't do it..." result is the weldor looking at too many things, or trying to, all at once. Watch the joint to be welded, it's wetness (the puddle) and simply add wire as required. The speed required is temp and thickness related. The balance of the wire can be assisted by starting with shorter pieces. Many teachers will try to force you into using the wires full length. Don't do that until you can. What's it gonna hurt?

    Aluminum is fast and furious at the puddle. Too slow and it's "beam me up Scotty...", the parts or weld joint is gone. But, welding aluminu made me a better steel weldor. Having to master the pedal force, wire feed, puddle size, etc, in rapid fashion, made welding steels and iron a luxury. I could offer that a good looking weld should be your 2nd goal. Weld it 1st. Make it strong, feed the wire right, relax and enjoy the process. It'll become a pretty weld all by itself in no time. Trust me on the aluminum gig. It helps. I hope at least some of this didn't "make me look fat..."
     
  23. tig master
    Joined: Apr 9, 2009
    Posts: 416

    tig master
    Member
    from up north

    View the video on rod feeding.Cut yourself a 10 to 20 inch piece feed it through your fingers while watching tv In one evening you will be able to do it in your sleep.There is a great amount of hand to eye cordination required to tig weld but is very easy to master with practice.Take a class if possible. Get a buddy with a tig to help you along. Learn the basics forming a puddle and torch angles and moving the puddle all without filler rod and then repeat your talents with filler rod.Just start with some 1/8" mild steel coupons and remove the mill scale and get the puddle routine under control.It easy when coached correctly.Don't get involved with walking the cup which is only done for some specific welds.Get your torch angle arc length and amperage for heat control going and then move on to welding..There are some talented welders here on this forum pick their brains.There are also some posters that have no real welding talents easy to discover when reading the posts.Tungsten size and stickout all comes into play.Tips and tricks.com is a good place for a newbie to start.Miller web site has a realm of info and some talented posters also. Welding web is another.Piece of cake hope this helps.Ask lots of questions.Pay attention to BLUE ONE he welds just read his posts.The machine and skill will all come together. Did I mention practice practice.

    My.02¢

    Tig.
     
  24. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    you mean this video?

    http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_proc/TIG/wire_feed_0609/TIG_wire_flat_hv.mov

    i can feed the rod like that! i have never seen any one feed rod like that before. it is not at all like my welding friend feeds it.

    looks like it's mostly used for pipe welding.

    i am. i see where he teaches welding. i have ron covells intro to tig welding video which i have now watched 3 times. feels like i get more out of it each time i watch it.

    do you think learning to gas weld first will really help me with tig? i also have a gas welding question. can you gas weld 3/8 plate if you bevel the pieces and use multiple passes to build up the weld beads? i'm in no hurry so if it takes too long that's okay for now.
     
  25. Joe Jackman
    Joined: May 6, 2012
    Posts: 166

    Joe Jackman
    Member
    from SoCal

    i trust you on the aluminum.
     
  26. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,458

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Lots of good advice has been posted. As mentioned, practice, practice ,practice.

    Tig is the process that takes the most skill to develop, but once you master it you will love it. Contrary to what someone posted earlier practice does make perfect if you learn the right way in the first place.

    Practice does make perfect and the advice on taking a course is good as well as long as you can find an instructor who is good himself and can teach you well how to do it.

    It took me many years to be good at the pressure piping and pressure vessel level , time with the torch and wire in your hands is what will do it for you.

    Another very good learning tool for Tig welding, believe it or not is Oxy Acetylene welding of mild steel with a steel fusion rod such as R45 or R60.

    It will teach you to carry a fluid puddle ,and also how to read the puddle in watching how much rod to add.

    I generally find that students (apprentices or beginners) who learn to fusion weld well with gas welding are also good at Tig later in their training.

    Tig welding is a lot like gas welding, as mentioned earlier, you have to learn how to run the foot pedal and give yourself enough amperage to make the metal flow and run a fluid puddle.

    After that it is adding filler rod smoothly to fill the joint and flow into the edges and slightly crown the weld.

    You are watching the width of the weld, the profile of the puddle and the edges of the weld to make the edges blend with no undercut.

    All this involves precise control of the amperage, torch manipulation and filler wire.

    I agree with not walking the cup. That is a skill to learn later and only useful in some situations.

    By the same token you should always find a way to rest your torch hand and the hand with the filler wire on the work, table or something else.

    Unlike any other form of welding you can't do a good job if you are trying to do it freehand and are waving all over the place.

    Always cut your 36" long Tig wires in half, more control that way.

    Again, Tig is a precision process and requires precision control.

    Practice, follow some of the tips and you will get better.

    As always wear your safety gear. You will see some very good welders who have posted videos on here of themselves welding with no gloves.

    I just don't get it, you would think they would be smarter than that.

    One last thing to consider, A good tig welder is just as good with the torch in his left hand as in his right hand and the same for the filler wire. :)

    Edit: By the way, yes you can gas weld 3/8" plate but you have to preheat and have a very big gas welding tip. And it is extremely hot and not a lot of fun.
    There are better ways to do that heavy of material.

    As you see above I mentioned that gas welding (say 1/8" steel ) material is a good learning tool for learning Tig.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  27. Don't know where you are in SoCal, but College of the Canyons in Valencia has one of the best welding classes around. I don't know if Jack Compton is still teaching there, but he is second to none as far as an instructor and welder is concerned
     
  28. cafekid
    Joined: Dec 4, 2008
    Posts: 380

    cafekid
    Member

    Compton retired a few years back. And yes COC's welding program is excelent, but you need to be quick, classes fill up very fast. But \, on the other hand if the class fills before you can register, show up and kepp showing up. Most times you will get in, because when guys realize its not for them they drop fast.
     
  29. tig master
    Joined: Apr 9, 2009
    Posts: 416

    tig master
    Member
    from up north


    Yes that is a fine video. How you feed the rod is not of a great concern.Use what works for you.I have bent tig rod to accommodate welding in a restricted area it still feeds well.Cutting the lengths to a manageable length in the beginning is also a good practice to get into.What does matter is you must be comfortable and smooth.Imagine standing in school writing on the blackboard with a piece of chalk.It doesn't matter how you hold that chalk as long as you can read your writing.Pretty simple now take that same image put one hand in your pocket and stand with one leg in the air and continue to attempt the same exercise.Soon you won't be able to read the writing and you won't be very comfortable.Same applies to welding.Tig welding when mastered is a fine skill that is a lot of fun.You will get all kinds of small jobs showing up for repair in your home shop.The key there is tell them you will give it to them tomorrow.They won't understand why you want 25.00 to weld that lawn mower and it only took 5 min's.The next day they come and pick it up and say great job how much that's all,thanks.Two jobs like that and you will pay for an argon fill,its a no brainer.Keep practicing the rod feeding.Some day you will pass on info like this and help someone.

    My 2¢

    T
     
  30. I would NOT recommend trying to learn TIG welding using the constant rod feed technique; for one very simple reason.

    Until someone is used to seeing the puddle form, the fill rod can mask formation of a satisfactory puddle. The fill rod melts on the surface without adequate base metal penetration. This is usually evident by a very shiny appearance of the weld bead. I run into this problem with students all the time.

    Being there and showing them the difference is one thing, but recommending it to someone that you're not able to monitor could lead to problems.

    As far as the glove issue goes, we teach our students basic TIG welding with NO glove on the rod hand. A general rule (on steel) is if they are feeling like their hand is burning with more than 3" of rod past their fingers, the torch angle is too low. This isn't scientific AT ALL, but is very useful in getting students to keep the torch upright and heat focused into the base material.

    (I should add that as soon as they've picked up on this idea, we recommend they go back to using a glove on the rod hand. Most don't wear one until they are comfortable feeding rod through their fingers.)
     

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