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Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by denis4x4, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. Buddy, the facts here are many states have run this stuff for OVER 30 YEARS. By your standards I should see dozens of broken down cars every day on my 25 mile commute. Truth is, I don't. We deliver MILLIONS of gallons of blended fuel a year, if anyone should see issues at the station it should be me. What I DO see is a knee jerk reaction and folks looking to blame ANYTHING. Ethanol is the easy fallguy. What folks really need to look at is the fact our newer fuels are just not as good as the stuff we had in past decades. They have taken out many items that made the stuff work well. The additives (not alky, the other stuff) are awesome but the base fuel is pretty crappy and corrodes by itself and turns to varnish in short order.
  2. afaulk
    Joined: Jul 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,189


    I've started adding fuel stabilizer to all pump gas that will be used in small engines, or motor vehicles not driven on a regular basis. I did so because I was having trouble starting all of them, after sitting unused for as little as 2 wks. Seems a reasonably inexpensive solution for me.
  3. Buddy Palumbo
    Joined: Mar 30, 2008
    Posts: 3,859

    Buddy Palumbo

    TMan - I'm not making ethanol the "fall guy" . I'm just stating the facts of what I'm now seeing daily since the ethanol fuel's introduction in our area , and actually having seen FIRST HAND the before AND after ... it's pretty much cut and dry . There have also been NUMEROUS articles & such showing FACTS about the bad issues with the fuel which show it in black and white with exactly the problems I've been seeing at our shop ... cut and dry .

    I'd also say that depending on WHERE you live in the US has a lot to do with HOW MUCH problem you have with the crap . If you live in a pretty DRY area , you may not see as many issues as we're seeing in our pretty humid area (the shit is MASSIVELY hygroscopic !).

    I don't want to get into a big pissing contest over it , as there's ALWAYS pro & con sides to the issues and it will NEVER be solved by pissing on each other's legs (and I just don't feel like typing all night) . All you pro-guys can say whatcha want - WE'RE seeing loads of issues , and they mysteriously seem to coincide with stuff I've read about :confused: .

    BTW - don't take anything personal abot what I type . I just want to get my points across . Ethanol is an issue in my area .
  4. No pissing match here, it is called discussion. :)
  5. This is such a touchy subject and it will always have people who are against it, for it, or simply throw their hands up and say "the government will never listen to me"
    Here's the thing, if one person speaks up, and keeps speaking up, people will follow. Then government officials will begin to listen. Call your representative, and call him/her often. And continue to do so. Remember YOU vote your reps in.
    Now as for E85 and all other "blends" There are thousands of cars running straight E85 with fantastic results, popular with turbo guys. The future is coming, and do we really want to rely on foreign oil forever? regular is over 3 dollars a gallon in most areas now, and it WILL continue to go up. Oil is not forever, maybe not in our lifetime, but it is running out. we need to look into a fuel that is replenishable. So why not corn? It could help struggling farms..
    So what did the American public say when they took lead out of gas? Did they all complain? We need to accept that things need to change and while E85 may not be the best answer, it is a step in the direction we should go.
    I will contact my rep, after i have done more research about the pro's and con's.
    The OP made a fantastic point, and I applaud him. One person is speaking up and people will follow.
  6. Yep, let's take a crappy base product that has been getting worse and worse over the past 30 years. Now let's keep diluting it will more and more Ethanol. Yeah I sure can't see how a problem would become bigger and bigger as time goes on. Try reformulated gas with 10% Ethanol and see if you don't become a pro at changing out electric fuel pumps. I have, even with Stabil added.
  7. threeston
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 74


    The corn grown in america (designed by monsanto) IS NOT FOOD! it will make you fat, give you diabetes, and kill you. If you really want to solve the problem, dont eat anything or consume anything that is related to yellow dent corn. including beef, chicken, pigs, fuel, cooking oil, high fructose corn syrup.. etc. Its not just bad for your car, its bad for everything.

    I realize this might be as impossible as buying a non-chinese made tool. But if you minimize your consuption, via conscious decision, it will make a difference. Even if only a fraction of the 180,000 members of the HAMB participated, their examples might change the way thousands of families live. Idealist I know, but still possible to create an impact. as for the corn farmers in the crowd, you know what youve done to your soil, your children will dump their dialysis machine runoff on your graves for your atrocious behavior.
  8. Commish
    Joined: Jan 9, 2010
    Posts: 379

    from NW Ok

    I would like to see some references on the many states that have been running this stuff for over 30 yrs. I seem to have totally missed out on that info.
  9. Iowa and South Dakota are a couple. look at the link I posted in this thread and others. What most of you gloss over is those of us that LIKE Ethanol are NOT tied to corn. The future lies in logging waste, algae, and other celluosic materials. Think about it, all those lawn clippings that folks dump at the curb can be 94 octane............
  10. sawbuck
    Joined: Oct 14, 2006
    Posts: 1,868

    from 06492 ct

    we have had problems boat .the fuel lines ,many older boats at my marina had problems...... the acc pumps in my 3 carb set up turned to mush...the carbs on small engines.but its not the corn... huh ? i am 53 years old ,been around engines a while ...these are new problems... my 2 cents
  11. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,252


    How did you seperate it? Do you have any links that explain the process or can you explain the process? I'm very interested in this. I would imagine a few others here are too.
  12. Lots of bad things about ethanol gas even at 10%. They don't think about the diesel fuel the farmers use in their tractors in order to grow the corn. Or the damage to fuel systems and engines. We also pay for it in other ways, like at the grocery store. Ethanol production increases the demand for and drives up the price of corn, which means you pay not only more for that bag of frozen corn but also more for beef, pork, and chicken from animals that are corn-fed. Ethanol fuel ultimately means that more people in this world go hungry.
  13. carmak
    Joined: Aug 8, 2005
    Posts: 451


    Every time ethanol is introduced in another area this comes up I am amazed at how crazy things get.

    Since I started using ethanol:

    *At least 1,000,000 miles (between my wife and I) on a half a dozen somewhat modern (10 to 15 year old) cars and never a fuel related issue.

    *15,000 miles on a 65 Pontiac (original un-rebuilt 389) and replaced original fuel filter at 79K (started driving it at 68K).

    *5,000 miles on an 67 Imperial 440 using a 30% ratio of E85 and 70% 91 octane. Ran great and didn't ping a bit (it pinged on straight 91).

    *I have many friends who are professional mechanics. Most common thing that happens on cars that have never run ethanol it a plugged fuel filter because the ethanol cleans out the tank.

    Running ethanol fuel is a non-issue here. We have had it for years.

    Riverside, Iowa

  14. Pig
    Alcohol is very corrosive and will eventually effect anything made of aluminum on your engine. A least the aluminum is the most vulnerable. Fuel lines are the least of the problems and the easiest upgrade.

    Your best option to protect an aluminum part is to get it hard anodized. You won't find it to be a real issue on any parts that don't have a clearance fit. Like say your intake could have the runners and plenum hard anodized or you could have the mounting face and combustion chambers done on a flat head with no real issues.

    Where you are going to run into an issue is with a part that has a clearance fit in an area that is effected by the fuel, like say a fuel pump. You will need to allow for the thickness of the anodized surface. This will require relieveing the part prior to the anodizing proscess, then a second machining process hoping to not break though the anodized surface to make the piece funtion. A carb will also be a real problem as the anodizing process may or will plug orifices or make them smaller and if the fuel must pass through the orifice in an aluminum carb you do want it to be of the proper size.

    I don't know at what percentage the alcohol becomes a real problem. But I do know that even at 10% it has an effect on both performance and the life of many of our pieces. Some of us are using pretty rare aluminum parts that we are not going to replace at Auto Zone.

    Although I am not one to normally get involved in the politics of our country I do believe this is an issue that eventually will effect us all. There is going to be something added to our gasoline that is going to cause us a problem. It may not be an issue for me personally, but if I were a young man I would be very concerned about it.

    I for one will try and get my councilman's attention. I am not very important on my own but mabe he or she will listen if we make our voice loud enough.
  15. unkledaddy
    Joined: Jul 21, 2006
    Posts: 2,864


  16. 52pig
    Joined: Jun 9, 2007
    Posts: 436


    I hear ya PnB, but I'll make due, and I hope every one does what they feel they need to do. These cars are important to me, but there is more to this world than even them.

    Just using these rare parts puts wear on them period, if you want it to last for ever put it in a museum. No disrespect intended, I respect you all.

  17. You certainly haven't been disrespectful to me but even if you were we would just beef the next time I was home. No offense intended. ;) :D:D
  18. wisdonm
    Joined: Jun 20, 2011
    Posts: 433


    Ethanol is fiscally indefensible. It can't exist on it's own merits. Without five levels of taxpayer subsidies it wouldn't exist. The ethanol debacle is wrong on so many levels. Can we really afford to burn food? If every farmable acre in the US was used for ethonal production, it would not make an impact on our fuel supply. Why does the government prohibit the use of plants that produce more ethanol of better quality? The president won't let us put in a new oil pipeline because it may pollute ground, but backs the use of ethanol that has been proven to pollute ground water.

    There is a very simple explanation for all this. Follow the money.
  19. oldpaint
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 357


    The BIG OIL companies have been screwing us over for years. I believe they are behind most of the negative propaganda on ethanol.
  20. They don't follow my links. Lots of developement going on.
  21. Road Runner
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 1,257

    Road Runner

    Plenty of info on ethanol and water separation online.
    We are using one of the problems with ethanol to our advantage.
    Ethanol attracts water molecules and combined the mix sinks to the bottom of the tank or container, as it is heavier than fuel.

    Similar as testing for ethanol content, just add about 10% water to the fuel and mix it well, then let it rest overnight.
    Next day you can drain off all the water/ethanol mix from the bottom of your container by turning it upside down.
    With a clear glass container or bottle, you can see the separation line and drain accurately without wasting fuel.

    What's left is pure ethanol and water free fuel.
    And if you want the alcohol separated from the water, just distill it.

    I always do this to get 100% gasoline for my yard equipment.
  22. marman1950
    Joined: Jun 29, 2008
    Posts: 171


    I'm glad this is posted... Very important,
  23. Rideron66
    Joined: Dec 2, 2010
    Posts: 44

    from Virginia

    Well, I for one did take heed and sent my elected officials a letter requesting them to support the bill. It may not mean much in the long run but I tried and hopefully you all did too
  24. It seems to me that one of the biggest issues with Corn Fed Ethanol in this country is the one no one seems to talk about. It is NOT sustainable. From everything I have read, we as a country are not only currently subsidizing the farmers to grow what is currently used, which means it is costing you and I more than we realize through tax dollars, but more importantly we as a nation cannot grow enough to supply our fuel demands. It just isn't possible.
    The mechanics of it all can be made to work, study Brazil's auto industry to figure that out, but the big difference is Brazil uses Sugar cane stock. They had a mandated 25% but had to roll that back to 18% last year do to crop shortages. They also have some vehicles running E100 (95.63% ethanol and 4.37% water). Sugar Cane produces twice as much "gallon over Acre" as Maize and Brazil had about 50% more farm able acreage than the US, for a much smaller domestic demand.
    The other issue is the very real and proven cost of increase in food prices in the US and Europe due to the shift in farming priorities. This was not a problem for Brazil due to using the Sugar Cane which did not require a shift of current farming but rather encouraged new growth opportunities for low income areas that weren't previously farming at all.
  25. Instead of putting effort in to preventing the sale of ethanol fuels, people need to lobby to ensure that non-ethanol fuels remain available, which is the real issue when it comes to old cars.
  26. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,367


    This tells me that any future engine builds I might do should be ethanol compatible. Fuel will not get cheaper regardless of it's mix. Realize it, expect it, accept it and build for it.

    It will cost more, but it will save a lot of grief down the road.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  27. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659


    I have never had an issue in the 6 years my T has been on the road. I just went to any gas station and had 'em fill it with regular.....ran great and I still have the same fuel pump, lines and carburetor I did when I built it.

    Now that I am in the midst of a major rebuild, I have people telling me to ditch my original diaphragm Autopulse 500 fuel pump and my Filt-O-Reg "because you'd hate to destroy them" and that they " hope I like rebuilding my Stromberg 81's" and that "I would be an idiot to waste them on Ethonal fuel"'s kinda getting old. On one hand, I am of course concerned and don't want to destroy my fuel system .... but on the other, I don't want to live in fear and be impeded by having to search out Ethonal free service stations or buy my own reserves of Aviation or Ethonal Free fuel.

    Some of this is a very important issue, but some seems to be hysterical paranoia....

    ...I just don't have enough experience to go either way, because like I said....My T has never had an issue.
  28. slepe67
    Joined: Jan 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,146


    I completely agree. I dont have the honor of knowing how this affects my deuce yet, but i do know that the new fuel completly screws up the jets & needles on my dirtbikes (even after they've been drained dry).

    I have a friend with a rather expensive boat. It's 2 years old & already needs a new aluminum fuel tank. This new fuel is causing the aluminum tanks to "shed" inside. The shedding cannot be stopped short of cutting out the floor & taking out the tank, coating it, or replacing with plastic.

    The oil industry is adding this crap to fuel so they can make more profit. I'll be writing my Congressman. Lets keep this thread on topic & on track. Good stuff to learn!

    Sent from my iPhone using TJJ
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
  29. Cantstop
    Joined: Jul 11, 2005
    Posts: 239


    changing my post, probably too political and dont want to get yelled at....

    Ethanol = Boo

    viva la Martin Niemoller
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  30. Wild Turkey
    Joined: Oct 17, 2005
    Posts: 903

    Wild Turkey

    Ethanol or METhanol??

    I remember from back when this started that a lot of the alcohol in "gasahol" was methanol ("wood alcohol", an industrial by-product) instead of ethanol (grain alcohol).

    It was Methanol that was eating up a lot of fuel system components that were ethanol safe but no one was bothering to discuss the difference.

    Picky point perhaps, but, like the difference between a "traditional" and a "rat" rod it is critical that we know the facts.

    Either way keeping EPA from causing more trouble is a good idea.

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