Technical The sidetracks we consider...331 Cadillac in '50 Ford F1

I want a traditional hot rod. I have one in the works now. I'm happy with it in a lot of ways. In other ways not so much.
On a project there's so many ways to go. It's easy to be going one way, then turn and go another.

Of course this about my 50 F1.
Honestly I have never been happy with the 302 in that truck. It runs good. I built it. I can be happy with it but....there's just something that I don't like about it.
I actually like the old speed parts that were used more than than I like the engine.

Yes....that's a 302 but...it's adapted to the 50 3 speed with vintage parts....I like that.

The 239 R Flathead....I have it. It's in storage in good shape but honestly, I like the 302 better.

If this truck was a Model A or pre-war, I would run the flathead. I just don't feel the flatty in the F1. I ran it in a Coupe. It did really well but....there was always....the specter of....is it getting too hot....is it knocking....It was good, ran great, but I was never really comfortable or in better words relaxed under flathead power.

Let's face it....Traditional Hot Rods are like the Circus, The Greatest Show on Earth. The Legend is bigger than the reality.

Here's the sidetrack...

I'm tempted by a Cadillac 331 and 4 speed hydro....or 331 early Ford 3 speed. That would be cool.

The dang thing is almost like it's made for a Early Ford!

It's not wasteful because I have a SBF HAMB car that needs a good SBF.

The 50 F1 with Cadillac Power..... that could be my signature Hot Rod.....

As I continue with the F1 I'm thinking about getting this Cadillac. Putting it on a stand crank it up...get it ready.

It's a sidetrack. An adventure. If it does not work out I can always keep the SBF.

I think this could be really fun. This may not work. The Old Caddy may be toast. Does it really matter? I see no harm in fooling around with a old engine that may change the direction of this project.

Sometimes sidetracks take you places you never would have gone. I guess this is one of those journey vs, destination things...

A 50 F1 with a early OHV Cadillac, What do you think?

 

less talk, more action, do it !

 

I agree tb33anda3rd. Sounds good. You know there are times I just can't get amped up about something on car or build. I just check my gut instinct and it usually is the way to go. I think it would make a cool retro signature. LS , big blocks over 427 cubes, and generic 350's bore me.

 

Damm, brother, don't believe I would even have asked. [Lewis Grizzard, paraphrase] I do the rest of the car just to get to play with the engine. Only thing better would be a BUICK.

Ben

 

No offence intended, but when and where I grew up, a 50 F1 was never a traditional hotrod.....but even before I got anywhere near the bottom where it finally says Cad 331... I was already thinking, >>>"no, not a hotrod back then, but I sure do recall the old Autorama show pickup trucks"........

do it up like those old show trucks...it will be a big hit.

.

 

In 1956/58 East LA, all the speed shops and body & paint shops had custom pick ups. Guys who pulled a boat or race car often put Caddy engines in them.

 

I have a 390 Caddy on a stand for mine. Like Frank said, they're not hot rods. I had wanted to do an old custom pickup, but mine wasn't it.
If you're gonna pull the trigger, I think it's pretty do-able. I have a TH400 and a 9" that I think would make a fun combo behind the Caddy, but after some recent trials and tribulations with my Flathead, I don't know if I'm into building another traditional motor right now.
What don't you like about the 302? I've been thinking about turning mine into a turn-key 302/C4 with a few more creature comforts.

 

No offence is taken at all. I know in the period it was a hay hauler like any post war truck.

Now this is what I'm talking about...fixed up trucks like that. Push trucks....chase trucks......I hate the term because it's so over used but shop or team trucks.....Custom trucks....the Dream Truck.....Roth's 56....

I'm really digging the Fordillac F1 concept. The power plant of hundreds of Blockaders and Moon haulers.

 

It's the look. I know this may sound cheesy but when I pop the hood......if it's not a flathead it needs to be something cool. Something kind of legendary for it's period.
I truly love a SBF but in later stuff. I have a 64 Fairlane Sports Coupe with a blowed apart 289. The 302 would go great there. That car would be ready for a tag after a months worth of work. I have 2 c-4s so the 5 bolt 6 bolt thing is not a issue.
As far as driving sound and all that, the 302 is a blast in that 50 with the 3 speed.

My 50 is not a candidate for a resto really....the front half is a mix of 51-2 sheet metal....the cab bed and frame are all 1950.
BTW
A 302 C4 combo will fit a F1 without modifying anything. The C4 will clear the F1 transmission crossmember and even the old 3 speed trans mount can be modified to wok with the C4.
C6....AOD FX FMX....the cross member will have to be modified.

 

I don’t even know why you’re asking...

Of course your truck needs a caddy. And the caddy needs a bunch of compression, an obnoxious cam, and way too many carburetors!

The best truck motor is the one that renders it useless as a truck.

 

Yeah.In the 1950s and 60s I remember debate about if a truck could really be considered a hotrod.
On this forum lots of people with off brand cars want to think that every car made was a traditional hotrod.

 

Thats bullshit. Ratrod thinking

 

That was my feeling too. People love the flathead when I pop the hood, but I don't love driving it. The opposite will occur with the 302.

When I was about 13, I read some cheesy novel called 'Cold War', but in one part I distinctly remember one of the characters describing his 2x4 Caddy powered F1, and that always left an impression on me.
My grandfather also had an F-1 that was Olds powered that they hauled a stock car with, and I always loved the stories about him blowing the doors off of unsuspecting motorists with an old farm truck in primer.

If you pull the trigger, 'Hot Heads' Hemi mounts are reasonably close to the old Caddy hurst style mounts. A friend of mine just stuffed a 390 Caddy in a '40 Merc with them.

 

I absolutely see that Cadillac engine in your truck, it's the right thing to do.
Back in the day, at least around where I have lived, guys were slipping in all kinds of engines in their trucks, Olds, Pontiac, FE Fords, Cadillac, good friend did a Dodge Slant 6, another did a Dodge 383 …. I mean there are NO RULES !
Oh, and Yes … most of the conversion ran like scared rabbits to in stock engine form.
You should do this now!!!

 

check out the Caddy motor's condition, availability/cost of rebuild & upgrade parts - what trans/rearend will benefit that motor the best - do you want to be without your truck for a period of time while you figure & do what it takes to make this conversion? - cost is a strong factor to consider too - for me, since it is a running truck I would focus on suspension/brakes/steering & creature comforts/looks of interior & and whatever body work that it needs - knowing that it will not ever be a totally perfect show car type - but, getting it be a clean ride that even catches your eye when you see it sounds good

 

Chuck Porter’s F-1 had a Cad in it I do believe...

 

There

There ya go! MUST be traditional.

Ben

 

In the rudimentary measurements I've done:

• Fan clearance would likely be an issue unless you went electric.
• Sanderson makes center dump headers (believe it or not) that should clear the steering box.
• If you're happy with your stock 3 speed, then it's that much easier since you can get a wilcap adapter and won't have to mod anything rear of the firewall.
• Oil pan looks like it should clear the stock axle without a hitch. Mine is a '61 390 with a regular spin on filter that jets way out on the passenger side and would need a remote oil filter. If you can find an earlier Caddy canister filter set up, that might work better.

Again, just some casual looking I've done, your experiences may differ.

 

Thanks GreenMonster48
There is some room to move the radiator forward. I had looked at a 300 six. The 300 was doable. The 302 is a long engine and I'll compare it to the 50 331 I was looking at.

 

In the 60's I had a friend who was in the Navy and had to go to a base on the east coast from the central valley. He had a 53 F100 that was tired. He and an old mechanic put a Cad and a hydro in it and they headed east. Never had an issue and it ran pretty strong. He, his wife and the dog made the trip no problem-he drove it for many years. Also where I grew up, farmers would put Olds or Cads with hydros in fairly new Ford pickups to haul cotton and cattle trailers-there were quite a few around converted this way-this was about 1960-61.

 

The 331 I looked at....


I went and looked at this engine last year. I was disappointed in how it was kept. This engine has been outside on a concrete pad with only a rubber floor mat, a rock (no shit....a rock) and a metal coffee can over the carburetor to protect it from the elements.
This photo was taken before someone backed into it and crushed the fan.
The man wants $1000 bucks for the engine and transmission. He claims it runs well and the transmission functions. He claims it came out of a rusted but low mileage car.

I left there last year thinking....$700. Halfway home....$500. Then core price of 3-400 bucks. By the time I was going up my driveway I had decided the guy was nuts.

Here's the thing....He is asking a price like it's a piece of gold yet he treats it like it's a piece of do-do.

Had that engine been kept 50 feet away in the garage....had they had it wired up and floor cranked it (like they said they would do) I would have probably bought it or at least tried to make it happen.

It may be a good deal but I have a hard time with how it has been kept. It's makes me feel foolish, like a sucker if I bought it in that condition.

A year later.... it's in the same spot...same asking price.

 

The market is soft, you can do better. I just turned down an extra one for far less, simply because I don't have the space. They are around.

 

It's all semantics. I come up in the 70's, was driving in the late 80s and owned old stuff from then, throughout 90s to the present day. We had hotrods even if we did not own a real Hot Rod.

My research into this conversion shows this was a popular swap in trucks back then. Again and again I'm reading stories of Caddies in...41 Ford Trucks...F1s.... on and on. Some of these were show trucks as mentioned, others work trucks, many were work trucks that found themselves as sleepers for the unsuspecting (Real Hot Rod).

Whatever route I choose, I'm going to hotrod this F1 even though it's not a real Hot Rod.

 

The voice of reason.

 

Thank you all! This really helps in my research and since this is such a resource, it may help someone in the future.

Funny thing....My off forum searches for research leads to to guess where?

Yep....Right back here.

 

Ok, Eff...I think you've pretty much talked yourself into the caddy with hydro. Now, back away from the keyboard, grab your cash and car keys and go make your offer. When I got there, I'd make sure it turns over before making any offers. It may be stuck tight, dropping the price to core-motor status and maybe more work [and gamble] than you had in mind.
I know what you mean about not being in love with the 302 in your F-1. I had a 49 F-1 with a 1967, 289/cruiso . The truck was heavy enough the sbf just didn't have enough low end torque to make me happy...even with the original F-1 rear axle with 4:27 gears in it. The caddy with hydro will make a completely different truck out of it. I would also have to swap an axle with 3:23 or 3:08 gears in it.

 

Rocky is correct about the rear end ratio. 3:23 is best.

 

I wanted a 455 Olds for mine, they seemed to be readily available until I was ready (and had the cash) to do it.
Mine has had a flathead, a 283, a late 350 Olds, a 454 and now a "street rod" motor. Most of those never saw much street duty before a "better" option came along. Mine is a retirement ride so it's pretty mild.
I might add that as big and heavy as the 454 was there were no problems installing it other than placing the radiator in the 6 cylinder position.
F-1 with a Cad, go for it.

 

The realities of this swap...

F1/Early V8 Cadillac 331 4 speed Hydro.....

The Cadillac and the Hydramatic are a really good combo. Both are tough. The Hydro is excellent but it does have it's quirks.....
For the Ford....something has to be done about the transmission cross member.
Of course the proper yoke and driveshaft modification is needed as in any engine swap.
The biggest issue I see with the Hydro is making it work. It's critical that the shift linkage from the carburetor must be adjusted and in good working order. This is not simply a kick down.
Now how all that relates to a performance upgrade....a change in manifolds, carburetors and how that coincides with the Hydro shift linkage....I have not a clue.

Maybe it's like working on the original flathead....pretty simple but easily overthought.

If there's problems with the Hydro.....
Modern shops are not an option. You'll have to find a real Hydro Mechanic or become one.

Shift linkage.
Maybe a option is the Caddillac column shift mated to the Ford Column?
Period Aftermarket floor shifts are pretty much unobtainable they are collectors items now.
Factory linkage shifters can be modified.
The cheaper ( yeah I know....nothing is cheap anymore and this stuff was never really that good) Sparkomatic linkage type shifters look like they can work. They claim it works in 49-up Oldsmobiles.....

The thing that concerns me about shifters is the reverse/park factory thing and safety issues about the pattern.
Maybe this is very simple and I'm over thinking it.

331 Cadillac Manual Transmission.....

This avoids the whole chassis modification.
This avoids the shifter linkage both from the engine and from the gear shift.
Will Cap has the plate to adapt the 331 to the Early Ford V8 transmission.
They also have the proper flywheel in steel or aluminium.
The '39 style top loader will be the weak link in the chain like it is now behind the 302.
Along with the Caddy- Early Ford adapter.... Hogs heads are available for 60s 3.03 top loader 3 speeds, Top Loader 4 speeds, GM 4 speeds..even T 5s.
Going manual is simpler in many many ways.

All these things and more need to be considered.