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Hot Rods The EUROPEAN DEUCE thread

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 57snrf, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    "Also, I bought a Model B engine. I can read on it Ford and H near the water inlet. It have an aluminum oil pan, crankshaft counterweight, WWII German tag on the flywheel housing (army color all over :confused: ) ... BUT dippers on the rods.
    Could you help me? (Model? Year? Country? Spec? ...)
    Just some guesses. The German B that has pressurized rods was the G28T, which translates as German (German Ford stuff was always labeled German rather than Deutsch even in Nazi era, because I think of Germany being used as the standard export marking for german goods) 1942 200 inch 4 cylinder. Most wartime german stuff, including v8's, used the 1942 revisions of the motors.
    Probably any parts carrying a number will show the G prefix.
    Ford Germany started making BB's in 1932, of course, and soon thereafter beacme a full factory making everything rather than assembling imported parts. Certainly by 1935 at least. BB's of the '32 type were made up to 1940 at least, and the engines were used ater the war in basically 1940-1942 trucks just like Wehrmacht and also in farm machines.
    Obviously the German B's started out just like USA and GB ones with dippers. There was at leat one series of B's carrying new german designation befoer the 1942 changes...I ran into that number in a wartime parts catalog. I need to go look, can't remember it, but I think it indicated a late 1930's revision...something like G98T. I will try to find that tonight. So at least two versions of german B's existed before the G28T, and I have no idea what the 1930's revision involved yet! I'd love to see pictures as your engine comes apart.
    Look for any numbers in castings, and possible stamped date codes on things like generator and starter.

    The "H" on the block...cast or stamped? I wonder if it might designate Heer for a military engine?? I have heard of serials stamped with prefixes possibly marked with miltary designations. What is stamped in the serial pad right above the water hole??
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  2. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    Thanks for the info, Bruce!
    Below, Model B police cars, UK
    437.jpg
     
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  3. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 14,573

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Don't Brits call them "Bobby's" or is it spelled Bobbies?
    Policemen that is.
     
  4. murf 32
    Joined: May 30, 2013
    Posts: 66

    murf 32
    Member

    Image0147-1.jpg Image0147-1.jpg Here's mine. Needs a lot of work. Going to run a flatty etc. Very hard to get stuff in Ireland for it. I would like to think the car was built in the cork ford factory. Got to do a bit more research. Murf
     
  5. Gabalus
    Joined: May 16, 2015
    Posts: 11

    Gabalus
    Member
    from France

    [QUOTE/] Just some guesses. The German B that has pressurized rods was the G28T, which translates as German (German Ford stuff was always labeled German rather than Deutsch even in Nazi era, because I think of Germany being used as the standard export marking for german goods) 1942 200 inch 4 cylinder. Most wartime german stuff, including v8's, used the 1942 revisions of the motors.
    Probably any parts carrying a number will show the G prefix.
    Ford Germany started making BB's in 1932, of course, and soon thereafter beacme a full factory making everything rather than assembling imported parts. Certainly by 1935 at least. BB's of the '32 type were made up to 1940 at least, and the engines were used ater the war in basically 1940-1942 trucks just like Wehrmacht and also in farm machines.
    Obviously the German B's started out just like USA and GB ones with dippers. There was at leat one series of B's carrying new german designation befoer the 1942 changes...I ran into that number in a wartime parts catalog. I need to go look, can't remember it, but I think it indicated a late 1930's revision...something like G98T. I will try to find that tonight. So at least two versions of german B's existed before the G28T, and I have no idea what the 1930's revision involved yet! I'd love to see pictures as your engine comes apart.
    Look for any numbers in castings, and possible stamped date codes on things like generator and starter.

    The "H" on the block...cast or stamped? I wonder if it might designate Heer for a military engine?? I have heard of serials stamped with prefixes possibly marked with miltary designations. What is stamped in the serial pad right above the water hole??[/QUOTE]

    Thank you Bruce !
    Very very interesting !
    I'll take some pictures of my rusty/damaged engine in few days.
    The H is cast. I saw nothing stamped in the pad above the water hole.
    After your post, I read this about German trucks on Internet :
    1932 to 36 : BB trucks like US models
    1937 to 39 : updated BB trucks
    1939 to 41 : G987T and G987TG
    1942 to 45 : G188T and G188TG (or B3000S)
    Ex :
    G - Germany
    9 - Model year 1939
    8 - 200 ci Engine
    7 - Model number
    T - Truck
    G - "gas wood Generator"
     
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  6. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    From France. Cool headlights on Didier Ditner's Tudor. Note (raised) louvers, typical of European Deuces.
    504.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
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  7. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    UK-built "Late model" Deuce (1933-34). Note shape of fenders (skirted) and doors (taller) 437-HAMB.jpg
     
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  8. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 14,573

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    That's really an odd duck, still neat though.
    Wonder what year that would be if registered in the U.S.
     
  9. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    I imagine you'd have to register the car as a '33 or '34!
     
  10. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    A Deuce found in Poland. Ford had factories all over Europe in 1932: Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Holland, etc..
    555-34polnd.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
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  11. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    From Germany
    543.jpg
     
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  12. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 7,090

    krylon32
    Alliance Vendor
    from Nebraska

    Wonder if they made any deliveries?
     
  13. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 3,064

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    According to post #8 by volvobrynk from Denmark, they did.
     
  14. I had a Dutch built 1932 Panel delivery about 10 years ago. The body was to bad to keep, so i sold the body to a collector and still have the chassis. I don't know and don't think they built tudor based delivery 32 in Europe.
    P.S. A lot of Model B's from Europe have a smaller 2000 cc engine instead of a 3300 cc 'normal' American engine due to tax reasons in the 30's. These cars have a chassisnumber and engine number starting with "ABF" or "BF" instead of "AB" or "B".

    Hennie
     
  15. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Yes and No.
    South harbor assembly plant in Copenhagen, did build a some cars, they also assembled some "knock down" cowl trucks, and had coach builders do the actual
    cabs.
    So if they was in a tight spot with making deliveries they send them out, and got them made independently. So the might not be like an US build delivery, and more like an adapted sedan. But there where available.

    I have no records of how many where build in Copenhagen, but I do know they supplied most of Scandinavia and some of Germany. Until Germany came and took what they wanted.
    There was also some cowl build Model As and B sold, to get a complete body from any known manufacture.
    I looked a coach build roadster ones, and it look like it was part Chevy, and part "farmer john" build.
    I even seen an 40/41 Art Deco Chevy 1/2 truck, converted to a 4 person roadster.
    So a lot of stuff has went down with them since then.
    And even more cars where cut up to trucks, tractors or pickups.
    Late 40s was hard times in Europe.
     
  16. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 3,064

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    Thanks for the clarification, Rasmus.
     
  17. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    Thanks everybody for the contribution. Interesting stuff!
    From France - that's how they look in stock form
    333-samH.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
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  18. captain scarlet
    Joined: Jun 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,415

    captain scarlet
    Member
    from Detroit

    British Panel delivery - the smaller vans were Model Y's

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1432569459.714133.jpg
     
  19. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    Just a repost from a message a while back, in case you missed it... US sedan vs. Euro sedan: this should explain some of it! Note different stamping around window/rear, reveal near the wheel opening, raised-panel hood side, dual glove boxes on European model only, and suicide doors of course!
    300h.jpg
     
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  20. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I can't find my 1944 German parts book...my life is sort of an avalanche of Ford paper.
    I think the Model G 98 Gabalus noted above is the "missing link" intermediate German Model B built between the USA style B of the early 1930's and the late wartime--postwar G28. I do not know what modifications made it a new model of the motor, like whether it had insert bearings, etc., and the parts book might help identify what's what.
    I do remember someone in Bulgaria (!) once contacting Ahooga or Ford Barn about a G98 head that turned up in Bulgaria...
     
  21. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    From France
    509-chauvy.jpg
     
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  22. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    From the UK (I think)
    470-HAMB.jpg
     
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  23. Gabalus
    Joined: May 16, 2015
    Posts: 11

    Gabalus
    Member
    from France

    I took some pictures.
    I can't read numbers on rusted parts but :
    _ "Z" stamped under the oil pan,
    _ "H.K.P. 519 A" write on a riveted tag on the rear engine tag ( HKP : Heereskraftfahrpark = Army Motor Vehicle Repair Park ? ). Perhaps, it's the same place than Kraftfahrpark 519 (Orléans).
    _ 94249 on the counterweight crankshaft.
    Intake ports and valves are coal color and exhaust, light brown !
    Intake and exhaust ports are not round. Rough casting or not finished ?
    Also, I can see hard exhaust valve seats.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 28, 2015
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  24. Gabalus
    Joined: May 16, 2015
    Posts: 11

    Gabalus
    Member
    from France

  25. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I'm not sure when Ford USA went to hard seats in production, I think around 1935-6, but wheb they did they also added hard seats to the A and B engines which were produced in small numbers up to about WWII. Many of the so called Diamond fours have hard seats.
    Serial number.pad is blank I think? Do you have the upper part of clutch housing, and does it have a number?
    USA B engines were not numbered on that pad (generally) but many European ones were stamped in accordance with local laws. German vehicles i think would also have required firewall tag with number and full information. Does the unstamped block mean it is a replacement block or is that normal for German B's?
    Any number on head? There was a high compression German head for engines hun on gases...
     
  26. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    The French magazine Nitro has just published an article about a pair of Tudors, both built in 1932 at the Ford factory near Paris. Both started as Tudors, though the model on the left has been extensively modified into a "Phantom" B-400. 132b.jpg
     
  27. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    That's how a stocker looks - this one from Sweden
    316-sweden (1).jpg
     
  28. Gabalus
    Joined: May 16, 2015
    Posts: 11

    Gabalus
    Member
    from France

    Serial number pad is blank and I can't see the pad on upper part of clutch housing ( HKP tag riveted on it ).
    Unstamped block means probably, it's a replacement block. Others ones I saw, have a number on clutch housing.
    Also, French cars have a tag on firewall with Ford adress, model ( V8-18, AN or ANF), body serial number and engine serial number stamped on it.
    Most of the french '32 Ford were Tudor AN ( 3.3 L. ) or ANF ( 2.0 L. )
     
  29. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    A jalopy from France
    156-argaud.jpg
     
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  30. 57snrf
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 872

    57snrf
    Member
    from California

    From the UK
    475-gb.jpg
     
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