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The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tjm73, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    I am thinking it will be about 7 to 8 qts. I have not put anything in it yet to see where it will be, but that's the ball park I think I will be in.
     
  2. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,524

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    I've done a similar modification to my pan : I'm planning to add oil to meet the dipstick marks, but wanted to see where others are going. My guess is about 10 qts? I also baffled the hell out of the new pan (that's a pretty big pan to let oil just "slosh around in" when going down the road...) LOL!
     
  3. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    Figuring the area I came up with 1.8 gallons to be 2 inches deep. At 3 deep inches the rods will be hitting the oil, at least with my stroke and rods. Do you have a picture of yours? I don't have a dip stick, something else I have to come up with.
     
  4. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,524

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    I'm not "picture competent" ( "camera upload challenged?") but a very similar pan fabrication(not as pretty!!) Stock stroke/rods/pump(& pick-up location) I did set the pick-up at 1/2" from the bottom of the pan(& in a "pocket" just like I would have done in a wet-sump race motor)
     
  5. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 273

    beck
    Member

    I would be interested in seeing photos of the baffling and trap doors. (EDIT; sorry drtcrV-8 I was typing while you posted being "photo challanged")
    The added volume would be a benefit to my motor, but the added weight of the oil would hurt tractor weight.
    2 of the guys have been pumping oil out the valve cover breather at the end of there pulls when running high rpm. That's telling me there isn't much left to lube the motor. The oil is all in the valve cover.
     
  6. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,524

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    It's buttoned up on the motor & installed in the truck chassis, but I can give an easy summary : Oil scraper on the right side of the motor between the pan & the block(similar to what Speedway sells, but I cut my own from 20ga), Vertical baffles across the pan at each main journal with a full length front/rear central baffle set 3/4" below crank-swing. At the bottom of each baffle(including the central one) I cut a hole 1/2" x 2-1/2" so the oil could flow to the pickup easily,( Think of an 8 chambered egg-crate to control the "slosh") I did put hinged "flapper baffles" over the right side of the holes in the central baffle to control the side to side flow & help it direct to the pickup area. I think the cross baffles under the main bearings are the most important. I knew I was forgetting something : At the back of the pan, below where the crank throw swings, a horizontal 2-1/2' wide baffle welded across the pan to keep the oil from running up the back of the pan under acceleration. just be sure to clear the crank throw!(there's a picture of one for SBC in the speedway catalog that bolts to the oil pump).
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  7. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    This is all I have done so far. I'm not real happy with it. My mind has a good picture of a weld, but the eyes and hands are up to doing it anymore! This is just the rear trap door, there will be a baffle up closer to the front. Most of the oil control will come a windage tray that will bolt on to the main bolts. It will have louvers and built something like a scraper. pan5.jpg pan6.jpg pan7.jpg
     
  8. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,524

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    The horizontal baffle that I recommended would fit over the pick-up & below the crank throws to keep the oil from walking up the back of the block under acceleration
     
  9. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,843

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    If I can turn the discussion away from oil pans for a moment:
    Early on in this thread @dennis g mentioned that the dowel pins for the bellhousing might need to be special. In fitting up my mockup engine with a Chevy bellhousing I came across an odd situation The upper left bolt hole above the starter is only 1/4" in diameter. looks to be centered in the housing bolt hole. No problem, drill and tap it 3/8 -16. The dowel hole also looks to be in the correct position, but is 3/8" or so in diameter, not the 5/8" it needs to be. I hate to use the bell housing as a drill guide as it is supposed to work the other way around. The dowel is supposed to locate the bell. The right side dowel hole isn't even close to being centered, and the block is too long to fir in my mill. So, I'm thinking that I have to plug the hole so I can hand drill and ream it on center and then indicate the center hole from the crankshaft. Then install offset dowels to center everything up.
    Did any of you other guys have to do this or am I over thinking it. Just put the bolts in and run it. That doesn't seem right to me.

    On a related issue: since the original Mercruiser starter can't be used with the Chevy bell housing, it looks like the aftermarket gear reduction unit will be needed. With the 157 tooth Ford flywheel can the small Chevy aluminum housing be used or is the larger unit necessary? I looked at @beck s picture but it appears that he is using an aftermarket housing.
    Has anyone thought about using a different starter and mounting it on the right side of the block where the Chevy unit was? Might be able to use a more common (cheaper) gear reduction piece.

    If everything fit it wouldn't be hot rodding!
     
  10. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    All my bolt holes are the right size, 3/8x16. There is the upper right bolt looking from the back that is nowhere close to fitting together. I plan to leave it out as LS engines don't use it. My dowel pins however were a press fit in the bellhousing. Twice I put the T56 trans to the block and twice I had to pry it back apart. One of the dowel pins was stuck to the bellhousing, came out of the block. I have reamed the bellhousing to .625, so now it goes together ok. But I want to probably use a 4 speed and have not tried that bellhousing yet.
    I think Dennis G used the stock starter and cut out the chevy bellhousing to fit it in. Worked for him, but didn't look good to me. I bought the International starter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
  11. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,843

    GearheadsQCE
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    That's what I was expecting to find. I guess I'll drill and ream my block and indicate the bellhousing center hole when I do a more complete mockup. For the dowel that is way off center, I think I need to plug the hole in the block so the drill bit can be centered. I learned a long time ago that you can't drill overlapping holes:D Do you think a drill bushing would be a good idea?
     
  12. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    Yes a bushing would be good to use. Drilling a haft a hole should be no problem using a center cutting end mill. Start a little smaller then needed and work up to the size you need. Do you have a 90 degree attachment for your mill? I use mine when I have to do work that is to tall for my Bridgeport. If I was going to cut the 5/8 off the back of the block I planned to do it that way. My mock ups says I just need a pilot bearing will need to press in to the flywheel, or make a special holder for it attached to the flywheel. Not going to cut the block. If you have to plug the hole, I have plugged a lot of holes so that will work fine also. I usually thread a plug in so there should be no problems with it moving later.
     
  13. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,843

    GearheadsQCE
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    Yeah, I don't have a right angle attachment for my Bridgeport. I might have to buy one. Can never have too many tools, you know. That would be a good way to cut the back of the block if needed.

    The dowel hole that's there is just offset about 1/4". The plug will be completely cut away once it gets out to 5/8". I'll probably make it a light press fit and Loctite it in before drilling.
     
  14. When I put my first engine together I knew no better but I had a new starter that came with the engine so I cut a hole for its nose. I avoided stress risers by rounding the corners and sanding it smooth. It has not broken..... yet.

    I suggest using a starter made to work with no support nose. CE sells geared starters made that way and they are lighter but not powerful. My original starter has a tapered nose and it has enough power to burst a cylinder (it once did exactly that). Some starters have enormous bulbous noses, I'd avoid them.

    One iron chevy bellhousing was designed to bolt a starter on from the rear. I have one of them but never tried it. I think it was from a pickup.

    Yes, plugging the misfit bolt hole and re drilling it in the right place is what I'd do now but I made a clamp that fits there without drilling either the block or bellhousing . Your ideas provide more shear strength. A handdrill worked ok for me. As it was ten years ago I do not remember much about the dowel pin except that it came from a hardware store. That is what I must have drilled for. I vaguely remember initially using a shim around a smaller drill bit to protect the bellhousing and later redrilling the hole to its final size.

    Flatrod, there is not much material in the bellhousing so If you want not to cut the flange on the back of the block, what other choice is there? I'd set up on the flywheel with the nose of the crank down and cut from there (Beck's suggestion). I bought two 4 1/2 inch cutoff wheels that cut aluminum.

    The stock clutch pushrod thing was not good for me , I made a cable one that I like better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
  15. An aerospace outfit cut my first block shorter for $100. they had a big milling machine in their spotless shop.
    Hanard sold out ending my access there.
    The only other local machines that could cut it were horizontal milling machines. As a fair amount of setup time was involved, they complained about that at our $175 agreed on price.
    I'm determined to do it myself on the third one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
  16. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    I only have the one block. I did put the flywheel on and plugged the trans in. I have clearance with the stock crank on the input, and looked like I just need a press in bearing in the flywheel like the flatheads use. The clutch plate will sit as best I can tell a little less the a 1/8 inch out of the splines. This was with the T56 trans. input shaft.jpg
     
  17. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    I have not looked into it yet, but I may have a problem finding a Chevy spline clutch disc to fit the small Ford flywheel.
     
  18. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 273

    beck
    Member

    I used an extended pilot bearing when I made my clutch spacer.
    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-SBC-BBC-Chevy-V8-Extra-Long-Bronze-Pilot-Bushing,6974.html
    However, like I always say, this has not been tested. My motor still hasn't ran.

    Off topic; anyone interested in half a set of aftermarket 460 rods? I have been looking at these, but am unsure of the quality. The I beam rods are rated at a higher HP and RPM than the H beam. I am open to other suggestions.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sdm-pce274-1090/make/ford
     
  19. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,524

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    Flatrod17 : As long as it's the correct diameter, the disc doesn't care what brand of pressure plate grabs it, although the hub splines do need to match the transmission input shaft splines....
     
  20. I use saganaw transmissions and one of the stock mercruiser flywheels that originated from Ford, mid 80's mustang pressure plate and a chevy disk, it just bolts up. the crankshaft has to be drilled for a pilot bushing. As your transmission is different dimensions change.

    Although my flywheel requires that I use a larger small block chevy bellhousing,( one from a pickup ) the starter gear meshes properly. I tried cutting a car bellhousing open for clearance room but when it cleared the gear teeth not enough aluminum remained to use as a bellhousing. The bellhousing center holes were sized to fit only truck transmissions into trucks. Changing the nose solves that barrier. note: the nose is very fragile and always breaks if forced into alignment by the transmission mounting bolts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
  21. On checking transmssion prices, I was astounded to see t56 prices around $4000. My lowly saganaws cost me $65 each and are in good condition.
     
  22. cast iron Saganaw 3 speed $65 it weighs 95 lbs.
    aluminum 6 speed T56 around 130 lbs but they sure are expensive.
     
  23. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 273

    beck
    Member

    I have been working on my motor for way to long. I had forgotten that I had that done to 2 of my cranks.
     
  24. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,843

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    I guess that I was just surprised that the dowel holes would be off. Didn't Mercury use them? My understanding is that setting the outdrive up is quite critical.
     
  25. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    My T56 was free to me, just still not sure I am going to use it. I didn't realize it was that heavy!
    I don't plan to drill the back of my crank for a pilot bearing, just going to use the flywheel like flatheads did.
    I am surprised too that the dowels are off. My engine came with a thin bellhousing, I threw it away. I can make center to center measurements if you need them to compare with what you have. Have you tried another bellhousing? Although they should all be the same at the dowels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
  26. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,843

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    @Flatrod17 ,
    I think I'm good. I did try several bellhousings, all with the same result.
    My plans are to run a mid plate, like a dragster. When I get that far, I'll make a drawing of the bolt pattern with the Chevy and Mercruiser hole locations, and post it here.
     
  27. The engines come with a flywheel cover that we have no use for.
    Seems odd that dowel pins are not in the right place. At one point the engine was intended for more than boats but that fell through when Ford wanted their name on it.
    I like the idea of the pilot bearing pressed into the flywheel. There would be a wider choice of bearings with the increased diameter, the transmission imput shaft would have better support and perhaps it would be easier to get the end of the input shaft into it. Putting the transmission on a furniture dolley with a little wooden rack to fit the transmission made getting it into the pilot bushing much easier it can move all around and be adjusted and tilted with carpenters shims .
     
  28. It takes a while for most of us to get these engines sorted out.
     
  29. distributorguy
    Joined: Feb 15, 2013
    Posts: 45

    distributorguy
    Member
    from MN

    This is all pretty interesting. My dowels were fine. I did not trim the block, rather I got away with making an extended steel pilot bushing lined with bronze. Then I needed to add a spacer to the throwout bearing.

    I think the 1/4" bolts at the bellhousing are only for the cover aren't they??? The starter I used was a high-torque from an International V8. Fit beautifully, easy install and no nose cone to sort out.

    My clutch disc was a specialty unit used in Jeeps with the Ford transmission swap. 10.5" 10-spline if I recall, but this is with an NV4500 from Chevy/Dodge in an old Land Rover. Fox body Mustang pressure plate, original flywheel lightened and surfaced. I have maybe 500 miles on it so far, working beautifully but wow does it vibrate at higher rpms!!! My rear view mirror glass feels like an electric toothbrush.
     
  30. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Flatrod17
    Member

    distributorguy, What are you running yours in?
     

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