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The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tjm73, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,199

    oj
    Member

    I'm following, quiet, but following. A little off topic but I am concerned with supporting the tops of the sleeves. Have you guys already figured this out? Mine's NA but it'll be full race and I can't have the cylinders moving around.
     
  2. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    On my block we actually went through and made it a closed deck block. We bored and sleeved it, but just to be safe we had a 3/8" aluminum plate water jet cut and we welded it in. After welding we resurfaced the block and it was good to go. Just make sure that you line a gasket up with it and transfer the holes for the water jacket. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Here are pics of the result. It turned out good.
     
  3. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,242

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Boss9 Brian, did you get my private message?
     
  4. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    One thing we did on a 3 n2o kit 2918cc Volkswagen flat four was pocket the head and the cyclinder actually was centeted and held by the head.

    Sent from my SM-G920P using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  5. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,242

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    That's a good idea. Do you machine the outside of the free standing barrels?
    I like what Boss9 Brian and his Grandpa did in closing up the deck. But that is another approach to consider.
     
  6. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,199

    oj
    Member

    I wonder if the waterjet guy kept the specs and could make another set or two? I like how you did it, thats the way to go.
     
  7. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    All we did was use a round end mill bit to give us a good groove to weld in.
     
  8. I would be in for a couple of the burnouts also for the block.
     
  9. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,199

    oj
    Member

    I'm curious, what did you put that engine into?
     
  10. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    A 1932 ford coupe with a fiberglass body. 450 horsepower 4 cylinder with 400 foot pounds of torque in a 1700 pound car.
     
  11. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    Also, in regards to cutting out more of the plates to support the cylinders i will need a quantity. I cant give you guys a price yet because just as everything else, it is cheaper with quantity. Also, i will need to know the thickness of the material you want. We chose to go with 3/8" and its obviously aluminum because we welded it in. Also the material thickness changes cost as well. So if anyone is interested then just message me. It would be best if you guys could agree on a plate thickness as well so it will minimize costs.
     
  12. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,199

    oj
    Member

    I'll need a set of 3/8ths, I couldn't weld anything thicker.
    400ftlbs? Damn!
     
  13. 3/8", 2 sets, will PM you. Thanks.
     
  14. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,242

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Let us know how many you are getting requests for and where the price breaks might be. I just went through this with another product. You will need a sizable deposit in order to assure that everyone follows through.
     
  15. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    As of right now i have at least 4 plates total. I will try to get my grandpa to stop by the water jet place next week since i will be in school.
     
  16. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    You put in larger sleeves right?
     
  17. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    Yes. My block was sleeved and bored out to 4.440". It didnt need to be sleeved but we felt safer doing it. We ended up finding a toyota fork lift sleeve that worked really well. If i remember correctly we shortened them a little bit to make them fit.
     
  18. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    I've seen many different ways LSx blocks have been -reinforced at the deck. Everything from side trusses/braces to steel cnc cut and pressed in (When they do the press in they do cnc cut the block and sleeve parameter negative so the insert matches the void perfectly) But I have always see the work done in this order. Sleeve, mill, fill, deck then bore last. The reason you bore last is to maintain rod/piston perpendicularity to the crank.
     
  19. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    Curiosity question - Has anyone tried filling the water jacket with wax to 1/2 inch from the top, adding dowels to match head gasket holes, then filling top 1/2 inch with hard block? And of course then melting out the wax.

    Seems like it would work in theory, and work as a deck plate. This might be mentioned up-thread too, it's a big thread. But I don't know if anyone has actually done this, and if the hard block will give the strength and stability you are seeking.
     
  20. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    Yeah I think if you started with a large combustion chamber head it would work. Because the head would actually drop down the block and over the sleeves approx .200. Then you would cut a groove for the o-ring in the head approx .030 and use a .050thk copper o-ring. When we did the VW engines the cylinders (Barrels) were already a precision diameter so they always fit in the head. The difference with this is the VW had no water jackets to deal with. So I think you could run a .090wide groove .075 deep around the top perimeter of the deck surface and o-ring it with an EPDM o-ring and ditch the head gasket all together. Doing this on the VW we ran a static compression of 19.5:1 and had a 3 stage fogger kit equal to 350hp adder. We had an all aluminum chassis, the car weighed 950 lbs and made just over 650HP. We swelled cyclinders, wrapped rods around cranks, wrist pins around rods and pistons around wrist pins but never popped a head seal.
     
  21. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    I like the stock sleeves. The Siamesed cylinders is actually a huge benefit. From what I see on these engines is if you resleeve it you have to shave the individual walls between the cylinders. This is a huge spot for failure. Doing that VW taught me a lot about sleeves and sleeve failure. Any flat spot will split unless that area is thicker than the thinnest curved area and it is still the weak spot. Another thing I discovered is Ductile Iron is the best sleeve material. We thought we where smart and made a set from cast iron... Fail. Then we made a set from 4130 steel.... it lasted 1.2 seconds and blew completely in half. The Ductile would swell and return to shape. (most of the time)
     
  22. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    This is really the way to do it on the low level build. But instead of wax you use silica sand and mill the water jackets in the hard blok after. Then flush the silica out of the block after.
     
  23. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    To make the original mold for the aluminum plate we used Vaseline and modeling clay to plug up the water jacket. Then we put fiberglass resin in it with nails sticking out to pull the mold out. Then traced it on construction paper and took it to water jet.
     
  24. Three Widow's Garage
    Joined: Jan 18, 2010
    Posts: 206

    Three Widow's Garage
    Member

    I've been fallowing this for the last couple years. Pulled one out of a boat that I picked up for the trailer that was
    under it. Snagged a nos Cobra Jet head on ebay a while back, Just haven't found the right car to put it in. Talked to my uncle the other day he has a 28 roadster body I can have cheep already have a model A frame and a T5 so now the wheels are starting to spin.
    Interested in filing the deck as well as a roller cam more for longevity than max hp. I have been casting aluminum
    for a while and plan on doing a side cover, front cover & 2 deuce intake. The post about filing the water jacket with silica sand and topping it off with hard block got me wondering if it would work to fill with sand then pour molten aluminum in the top 1/2 inch. The edges could be v grooved to help lock the casting in place just don't know if there would be enough shrinkage to negate the effort. Otherwise I'm on board for a set of the water jet plates.
    Also was thinking on the cam a while back, I was helping out a friend swap out a Ford V10 in his van the cams look to be built by pressing lobes onto a shaft/tube- wonder if they can be dissected, reconfigured, reassembled, reground
    ect.
     
  25. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,242

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Three Window's Garage,

    Sounds like your plan is coming together.

    I'm no casting expert, but I think your plan for filling the top of the block might work. If I were to try this, I would pour it as you suggested and then plan on welding it in place. Don't know how you figure what aluminum to use.
     
  26. Three Widows: If you would be using scrap aluminum, it must be cast, not structural, as cast aluminum contains silicon which allows it to flow when poured and does not "freeze" as quick. I do not think (in my limited knowledge) that this will work.
     
  27. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    What I'm reading about the LS guys reasoning for doing this is sleeve walk. Keeping the sleeve centered. This is why some guys just truss the sides of the sleeves.
     
  28. Jiminy
    Joined: Oct 25, 2012
    Posts: 330

    Jiminy
    Member

    Don't aluminum castings shrink as they cool - roughly 1/4" per foot? Wouldn't that pose a problem casting a deck within the block?
     
  29. I think that would be only one of the issues
     
  30. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    Hard BloK seems to be the magic potion for this type of work.
     

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