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The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tjm73, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,308

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    Turkey Broth Trading : That's the same starter that I bought. What I was asking Brian9 about was the starter shown in his picture was different that the one that came on my motor(& also different than the IMI unit that I also bought), & I was inquiring as to it's origin; if it is a commonly available unit, it would probably be considerably cheaper than the IMI unit, should anyone else need a starter.
     
  2. Drtrcr, sorry, I did not read it correctly
     
  3. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,308

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    No harm, no foul, no autopsy... LOL!
     
  4. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    Brian's starter looks like the stock Mercruiser one to me. It used a Ford type solenoid mounted in front of it on the block. I have 3 of them here. Had 2 in my hand last night during shop cleaning. I will have to double check. They are very heavy.
     
  5. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,308

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    Beck : There are probably several different "stock" Mercruiser starters, depending upon the year ; My original came on a #488 model(quite late) & was basically an International with the solenoid mounted to the body(& directly in the path of my Model A brake lever), Brian9's starter does not(at least in the pictures) have a solenoid mounted on it, & that was the reason for my question, as different starters might be more readily available(& at cheaper prices) if we knew what to ask for.
     
  6. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    I had not considered there could be different "stock" starters. I have 3 motors. 2 have this starter, which is like Brian's.
    The Ford style starter relay is just visible on the upper left of the photo. The gear reduction unit is the same as you have.

    [​IMG]

    One of my motors has this one. I thought it had a Ford starter relay on it, but may be mistaken. That is obviously a solenoid on top. There used to be a trick with the hot rod small block Chevy guys. You would bypass the stock solenoid and just use the spring and plunger inside it to actuate the gear. You then used a Ford relay to energize it. That cured the hot no start caused by exhaust header heat. The starter mounting bolts are critical on this one. They need to be 12 point bolt heads or Allen heads. When I tried 6 pt bolt heads they wouldn't clear the larger part of the starter housing.

    DSCN2387.JPG

    I disassembled and cleaned up this starter. I had it on eBay. A guy from England bought it. He backed out when he found the shipping was going to be $147. They are quite heavy.

    drtrcrV8, I know what starter came from each motor. Would my motor numbers help you match either up?
    If this is a Mercruiser only piece, it will be pricy. It would still be as economical as having one of mine shipped across the country. The bottom starter would bolt on and go, but isn't "like new". I did a no load test on it and it worked. The top ones were both on motors that were exposed to rain water so I would think a rebuild would be in order. I have not tested them.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    Click on the above photos to enlarge.
     
  8. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,308

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    Early on in this thread Mercruiser's use of an International starter was discussed, & the IMI gear-reduction starter is also listed as being for International. In the above pictures from Beck the housing looks the same, just seems to have a re-positioned(?) solenoid. If I'd used a set of '32 up pedals(or 'swing' pedals for that matter) there would've been no problem with the solenoid location, & if I do another build with this type of motor, I'll keep this in mind. I'd gotten too dedicated to what I wanted to do in my current build to change to something else(& still keep the "presentation" that I wanted to keep.) Yes, I've got to learn to upload pictures & start a 'build-thread' on my project, but I'm not quite 'happy' with it yet :it'll need to be on the road before I'm ready to document it here!!
     
  9. tscheerer
    Joined: Oct 22, 2014
    Posts: 9

    tscheerer
    Member

    Well guys, here's your chance to get a running engine for your project! See post #1411 for details and a video of the upgraded 3.7 that's now for sale because my plans for using it have changed. Price is $2000, which includes the engine as shown, plus the original head, valvetrain, boat mounts, flywheel and coupler. Here is more video taken on 6/5 when I ran the engine again. Profile has been updated to show location is Kansas City, MO.

     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  10. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    tscheerer, I hate to see you aren't going to use this. Your profile doesn't say where you are located.
     
  11. Rootsgroup
    Joined: Jan 26, 2008
    Posts: 58

    Rootsgroup
    Member
    from Indiana

    Turkey, thought I would post these pics here, may help you, or maybe you're way past this. This is my late 60's Edmunds 4-bar chassis, with Bert trans IMG_20160621_095423191.jpg
     

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  12. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Got a little tricky with the headers. Were able to get them all pretty close to equal. Big thanks to Speedway Motors for making an affordable header kit.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  13. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    kidcampbell71 and stealthcruiser like this.
  14. mongo4u2
    Joined: Apr 1, 2007
    Posts: 147

    mongo4u2
    Member
    from sparta

    Here is one in a front engine dragster
     

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  15. 485forSALE
    Joined: Oct 3, 2016
    Posts: 1

    485forSALE

    For Sale...Make me a good offer.

    Hello all, I have a 1981 Mercruiser 485 engine in a 19 ft Renken boat. It hasn't run all season, because it wouldn't turn over, just clicked. After further diagnosing, I pulled a plug and saw my worst nightmare!!! "Water" inside the cylinder! Explains why it wouldn't turn over. Big story behind the possible cause of the waster in the cylinders. But I had the exhaust elbow replaced last year and I believe it must have a crack inside it? But again it could be the crank seal too I suppose. IDK.

    I am not interested in rebuilding the motor. I'm going to cut my losses and it can be your gain.

    If your looking for a great donor to build into a drag car or stock car please PM me!! The trailer is galvanized and is worth about $1k alone. So make me a good offer. Rather sell it as a whole package, Boat/motor/trailer. I know they make aftermarket sleeve kits and someone could get this beast running again in no time.

    Thanks, Jeff
     
  16. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    Well guys I finally got my boss four cylinder running. Heres a video of it. The thing is insane.
     
    stealthcruiser likes this.
  17. wingedexpress
    Joined: Dec 24, 2006
    Posts: 894

    wingedexpress

    that thing sounds good, what are you going to put it in?
     
  18. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,513

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Boy, is that thing wild! It doesn't sound anything like I expected. It's SNARLY!

    If you wouldn't mind sharing, approximately what kind of $ do you have in it?
     
  19. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    Boss9 Brian, That thing sounds great. What did you decide to do for a cam.
     
  20. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    I was gifted a billet cam blank yesterday to make a solid roller cam. The donor had a couple make when he had his done. His blank has some special features. It has a SBC bolt pattern and an extension to run an external oil pump drive. He doesn't use the stock water pump.

    His recalls his trick with the SBC cam drive was to use a BBF Cloyes "Quick Adjust" set. He then replaced the center of the cam sprocket with the SBC center from another Quick Adjust set. There was a bit of shimming required to align the sprockets. He didn't recall which sprocket or how thick the shim was. He thought that he used an undersized chain set. These are offered in std, -.005, and -.010. The stock chain tensioner was retained in the assembly. When you reach our ages some of the details leave after a while.

    If anyone has any timing chain set information I would appreciate the it!
     
  21. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    It is going in a 1932 ford coupe and we have about $5,000 wrapped up in it total. But we did a lot of fabrication and had other parts laying around that we put on it. In the retail value of all the parts in it is probably about $15,000 with the labor and stuff
     
  22. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    That thing sounds wicked. Is there a build thread on it? I have one of those engines to build for a tank, I'd thought about using the C head but, damn!
     
  23. Boss9 Brian
    Joined: Jul 29, 2015
    Posts: 73

    Boss9 Brian

    Sorry but there is no build thread. I started posting here a while ago and i would give brief updates but thats the closest i have to a build thread.
     
  24. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    I disassembled yet another 470 this evening, looking for the perfect parts. That isn't what I found. The block was already .030" over and has some scuffs in the bores. I was hoping for a really nice bores .030" over since I have 2 sets of nice pistons that size. The crank is std/std which is great but the snout is really a mess. It looks like it's covered with pits, to the point that the balancer is loose. The timing chain appeared looser than the other 2 I have disassembled. The lifters for #1 cylinder were tight in the bores and I drove them out with a wooden rod. I have one more motor still assembled that I'm using for a fit up mule. I may have to rip it apart yet.

    Here are my questions of the day - The SBF crank snout is 1.375". A SBC is 1.245". The crank timing gear sprocket was tight, but there were pits there too. Could I machine the front of the crank snout to fit the SBC balancer? I don't know the difference in depth of insertion between them. Is there a repair sleeve for the crank snout like there is for a harmonic balancer? I could have it metalized but I don't have any idea of the cost.

    If I machined the front of the snout to SBC size I had planned to let the back stock size to retain the original sprocket. UNLESS the SBC crank sprocket is the same OD size and pitch as the stock one. If it was I could cut it all the way to the bearing and just use the SBC lower timing gear. Using a SBC balancer would require a custom front crank seal setup. A machined spacer would take care of this.
     
  25. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,513

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    beck,
    I would think that you would want to INCREASE rather than decrease the diameter of the snout, if it is practical. With all the discussion about the harmonics of this engine, I would look at going to BBC diameter. (1.600" I believe)

    I know that this a common upgrade to SBC cranks when using a Roots type blower. I know it is an option on a custom crank but don't know if it is something that could be done by making a sleeve and welding it on the snout of your crank. I believe that somewhere back in the thread that there was mention of using a BBC cam sprocket. It would be nice of you could use both sprockets from a BBC set.

    BTW, are all your cranks cast? Early on it was stated that the first cranks were forged and later engines had cast.
     
  26. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member

    I don't believe adding a sleeve to the crank snout would increase the strength. If you were having a new billet crank made it would definitely add strength. Adding a sleeve would be difficult because of the keys. To put the balancer in the right place the ID and OD keys would have to be aligned. The sleeve would be thinner than the dual keyway slots.

    All 3 of the motors I have disassembled have cast cranks.
     
  27. beck
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 168

    beck
    Member


    I have not confirmed this so don't buy parts based on this information.
    I think the bottom timing sprocket is BBF, and the top sprocket is unique to the 470 motor. The OD and pitch of the top sprocket is also BBF. The center of the cam sprocket is what is unique. That isn't to say that cannot be modified. The problem with modifications is the chain needs to fit. The BBF and SBF have the same diameter crank snout. I also think the chain is an undersized BBF. I don't know if it is .005" or .010" undersize.

    See post 1461 above about cam sprockets.
    I believe it would be possible to machine a spacer for the front of a stock cam to mount the SBC bolt pattern on. I don't know how much or if anything would be gained. It would allow us to buy new timing sets but they would be very pricy if you had to buy the SBC and BBF sets to combine parts. I am not smart enough to machine such a spacer. I don't know where the keyways and dowel hole need to be to put the cam in the right position. Degreeing that cam could be a chore.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  28. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    Hi guys, my name is Scott, I have been lurking this thread for about a week now. I started doing research on this engine setup for an endurance road race car me and my team have been racing for about 4 years now. I was originally looking to do an Iron Duke turbo. During that research (3.0- 170 Merc) I gloriously ran across all these 3.7 on youtube. And now I have found all you wonderful peeps hiding spot. :) I have got to say... You all have these engines fully tinkered and have done so much effort over the last several years and are clearly a wealth of knowledge. I'm sold.

    I'm mid fortys and have built many toys. I'm full MERICA! Chevy/Ford/Mopar. I appreciate the hot rod scene but have never built a roadster. Right by my Cali house is Muroc and El Mirage dry lake(s) and have spectated a few land speed meets. Very fun to watch. Although I've been to land speed stuff around my house I'm more into the road racing and Willow Springs is the home track.

    I race a series called The 24 Hours of Lemons. Some of you may know what it is. You basically have to build a Rat Racer that typically runs for two days @ 9hrs a day and there are a few 24 hour non-stop races. The spirit of the series is to build a 500.00 car. Brakes, Wheels, Tires, safety and fuel systems don't count towards the 500 limit. Last year we broke a world record for largest field on a track of 240 cars. It's not a smash up derby. You get black flagged and penalized if you spin-out, make contact or go two wheels off. So it's some very good racing. Lots of fun. You have to have at least 4 drivers and as many 6. Our car goes about 2:15:00 on a 22 gal fuel load then we switch drivers and refuel.

    The name of the game with the series is a Theme... Your car has to have a theme. You can't just get an 85 mustang and put numbers on it. You have to have a fun theme. Our Car is a spoof on Rock and Roll -Iron Maiden. It is an 88 IROC Z - Hence IROC MAIDEN.

    You can fab up whatever you want and get away some things if you get permission. The odder the contraption the better. Junk yard parts are a plus. Red neck engineering is the god art. The goal is to finish the race. They want you in the pits fixing your hooptie if it breaks. There are very good teams that get no penalties all weekend and zero downtime. The fastest car NEVER wins. We have the fastest car and many are just as fast. Out of a dozen races our best is 3rd a few times.

    Anyways... Back to tech stuff. A basterized Ford 4 banger in a Camaro is just what the doctor ordered. I got approval for this engine with a turbo or super charger. The Fomaro.

    Thanks for reading my long winded post, I would really like to participate in a build with you guys on this forum. I don't have a Rod.... It's a mid 80's hooptie. Is it okay if I hang out on this thread, ask questions and share? Scott
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
  29. FlyHiFlyLo
    Joined: Dec 5, 2016
    Posts: 107

    FlyHiFlyLo
    Member

    I'm going to bolt up to a Winston Cup- Jack Roush T-101. It is a NASCAR 4 speed. I have flipped the 3/4 shift lever. Normally 4th is 1:1. Now 4th is 3rd (1:1) and 3rd is 4th. 4th is a .83:1 over-drive. It's a "dog ring" not syncro setup so I do clutchless up shifts. It's set up for 145mph at 5050rpm on the strait-aways- A LOT OF FUN. I'm running a Tilton Titanium fly wheel, Tilton 5.25"3 disc clutch pack, Tilton center slave cylinder and a Tilton magnesium bell housing. The fly wheel and clutch weigh about 11lbs total.


    As stated prior in the thread, I will have to counter-bore crank for the pilot bushing/bearing. Do I have to mill the rear block face to get this to bolt up? It's standard SBC stuff.


    [​IMG]
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    I built a aluminum 3" driveline. The rear end is the stock 7.25" housing sort of: I cut the ends off and am running semi floater ford 9" tapered big ends, Moser 28 spline axles, an eaton tru trak from a Mustang Cobra and 3:90 Richmond gears. Rear Brakes are 12" vented willwoods with 4 piston and H compound pads.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
  30. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,513

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Scott,

    Just trying to help you out here.

    This forum is dedicated to EARLY Hot Rods. In most cases limited to 1965 and older. It's not that nobody appreciates other stuff, just try to keep it relevant. One area that is not restricted to the time line is engines. This thread is around because these boat motors can be adapted to 'our' focus cars. Probably not going to get much excitement on turbos or EFI. Limit or eliminate pics of late model cars.

    I have no authority on what stays or goes but don't be surprised if a Moderator pulls your posts or pictures.

    No one will probably say anything if you limit your posts to engine work and drive train.

    The other thing is that there is a requirement that you post an intro on the "Introduce Yourself Here" thread at the top of the first page.

    Other than that, Welcome and let us know about your Mercruiser 3.7 build.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020

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