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Projects The Consolation Prize - '61 Olds Super 88

Discussion in 'Traditional Customs' started by 57JoeFoMoPar, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    You still may be able to use the same kit, or you may be able to make something yourself. I see no reason why you couldn't adjust the length of the lever arm on either the transmission or the shifter to make sure you'd have full range between Park and 1.
     
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  2. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    Was out driving around the other day and had the first SNAFU. Of all the custom made stuff in this car, I did not anticipate a disintegrating power steering pump pulley to be the first point of failure. This happened when I was driving some pretty rural backroads, about 50 mph in overdrive. Luckily I heard it first, pulled over quickly to inspect, and shut it down immediately before it could come apart any further or cause any real damage. The pulley groove split perpendicular to the groove and basically unfolded itself. Never seen anything like that in my life, especially without any high rpm use and with good belt alignment. I think I'm just going to attribute this one as a statistical anomaly and cheap part failure, replace it, and keep it going. Oh well. 292346953_10107593321070614_6758165005769003300_n.jpg 292855418_10107593321075604_2586737750959497646_n.jpg
     
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  3. If you drive them, occasionally things will happen.
    Don't let it discourage you.
    Fix it and keep going.
     
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  4. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    Honestly, the part I'm most pissed off about is the mess that I'm going to have to clean up when I take the lines off to get the pump out. New pulley should be here tomorrow and hopefully we'll be back in business.
     
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  5. Wow...I have never seen a pulley come apart like that. :eek: Assuming that is not a factory GM pulley, but an aftermarket on a rebuilt pump or something?
     
    Stogy likes this.
  6. The damndest things will break on your ride. With stock cars, we took great pains to make sure the car would always finish the race. I took that philosophy over to hot rods. Sometimes I still got bit by a part failure.
     
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  7. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    Definitely not a factory pulley, and I totally forget where I got it from. It's some no-name off-shore part. But even still, amazing to see a pulley just come apart like that.
     
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  8. flynbrian48
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Posts: 8,220

    flynbrian48
    Member

    That sounds like something I would do. ;) Pretty car!
     
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  9. VEDETTE
    Joined: Oct 14, 2010
    Posts: 466

    VEDETTE
    Member
    from FRANCE

    "Made in Tawain"! :mad:
     
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  10. dan c
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,520

    dan c
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    those are beautiful cars. wonder if you knew that GM had a shortage of olds engines in the '70s and was secretly putting SBCs in oldsmobiles? like a fella i worked with, most owners didn't know the difference, but GM wound up paying owners...
     
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  11. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,212

    Elcohaulic

    The Olds 394 with the 400 Super Turbine (switch pitch) with the 3.08 would of been a killer. But things don't always fall into place just because we want them and have the money.. I use to drive a 64 Super 88 with that drivetrain and wow was that car strong! The Turbo trans and the big 9.3 Olds / Pontiac rear end are pretty much indestructible. The 7004r are ok but I wouldn't be cutting things to get it to fit. That 3.08 is perfect for a nice Super Turbine 400.
     
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  12. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    I could have sworn that I have seen at least one 1961 Olds that was sold in Canada with a factory installed SBC. Perhaps my Canadian friends can chime in on that one. I wish I knew more about it and how GM went about mounting that engine in this chassis, because I have to tell you, it was a sonuvabitch to get that engine in there cleanly.

    The problem was less with the engine and more with the configuration of the chassis, pertaining to how the 394/Roto10 was mounted versus how the SBC/700R4 mounts. The engine itself fit perfectly, and the stock, rear sump oil pan fit perfectly in the car and cleared the center link comfortably. The issue is that the 394 used a single front mount under the crank pulley, and then 2 wide side mounts in the rear that attached to a center crossmember where the transmission bolts to the back of the block. The Slim Jim, without a bell housing on the transmission case, just hangs off of the back of block with no rear crossmember.

    But the SBC has provisions for front mounts and side mounts, and THM350/400/700R4 all need a rear crossmember. What I wound up doing is reconfiguring the front of the chassis to use '57 Chevy motor mounts with custom rubber cushions, the left one was a special mount that also encompassed provision to mount the power steering pump. I built the huge crossmember pictured above for the rear. But because the tri-5 mounts are all the way on the front of the engine, not to mention close to the crank in a narrow fashion, and the middle of the drivetrain is unsupported, I used a wide mid mount like a Howe mount that I further modified. Everything is rubber mounted to allow for some articulation.

    I'll add some pics next time I'm out there
     
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  13. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Of all the '61 GM 'bubbletops', the Olds was by far the prettiest. (Especially when lowered!)
    I had heard about Oldses with SBCs, but working at the Cadillac dealer heard firsthand about the Cads with SBCs.
    A wealthy Atherton lady came in one weekday morning, demanded to see the Sales Mgr.
    She stated that while getting some tires fitted, the mechanic mentioned the economical price engine parts were for this model, as the engine was Chevrolet.
    She was quite loud, and a month later the San Jose Mercury news had a lead story about "Cadillacs with Economy engines".
    Hell, when I was an apprentice there were Lincolns that came into the shop with Hydra-Matics. (After the Lincoln-Mercury div. of Borg Warner burned down)
     
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  14. Is that pulley chromed? Could be hydrogen embrittlement from imperfect chroming process that made it fly apart?
     
    Stogy likes this.
  15. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    I would have loved to have kept the 394. I really like Olds engines a lot, including the 324 in my 56 Holiday. The 394 certainly has a lot of torque, which honestly this SBC doesn't have as much of. But that being said, the 394 was rated at like 325hp and 435 ft/lbs of torque, which my old, tired engine certainly wasn't making, but needed 10:1 compression and premium fuel to do it. This Chevy makes the same horsepower, but has only 8:1 compression and will run on anything flammable.

    To be honest though, the main reason I swapped to the Chevy was for transmission options. I've never had an old car with overdrive and that was on the top of my list for this build. I agree with you that a switch-pitch 400 would have been a substantial upgrade over the Roto10 (which was far and away the worst transmission I've ever had in an old car, including a Turboglide), but it still doesn't have OD. I like to drive my cars and want to go long distances with them, but I also want to run modern traffic speeds (70-80), and do so comfortably. Without OD, 75-80 mph was the upper limit of what this thing wanted to do comfortably, but also required my foot in it to do it, with ocean-liner level fuel consumption. I would have happily adapted a 700R4 to the 394, too. However, this is where the cost/benefit analysis came into play. Even on the low end, doing a complete rebuild of the 394 myself and converting to a 700R4, I'd be in it about $13,000, and more if I went with multiple carbs. If it were close in price, I'd have bucked up and run the Olds, but I just couldn't justify that much of difference in cost when the performance/reliability/looks are basically even.

    This setup as it is now certainly doesn't feel like it lacks power, but if I feel saucy in the future, maybe I'll swap that 3.08 out for a 3.90 or 3.64, which will help wake that SBC up and let it rev more freely. Or maybe I'll like cruising at 80 mph at 2100 rpm and getting reasonable fuel economy on 87 octane. We'll see how it plays out.
     
  16. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    That thought definitely crossed my mind. This is some generic, chrome pulley that I probably picked up at some swap meet, I don't even remember where from. My new pulley should be arriving today, so I'll get out there and swap it and we'll be back in business. The local cruise night is having Oldsmobile night this Saturday, so with any luck I can get this fixed up quick and my wife and I will take both this 61 and my '56 Holiday 98 coupe.
     
  17. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    I wanted to post some closer pics here of the engine mounts that I used for this swap in case someone else is looking for some guidance on how to put a SBC in one of these cars. I know there will be some people out there that will bitch about putting a Chevy in an Olds and that I should have left the 394 in there. Whatever.

    But that aside, there may well be someone out there who grabs a 61 Olds with a bad engine or trans, is on a budget, and the difference between getting their car on the road or parking/selling it is putting a cheap, reliable drivetrain in it. Like it or not, the SBC achieves those ends. The HAMB to me was always about getting your car on the road and driving it, and not trailering it like the sissy street rodders. So maybe somebody comes across a cool '61 and wants to put their car together, Googles it and comes across this thread, and gives them some advice to help the learning curve.
    I'll also try to list the parts I used.

    The biggest problem mounting the engine is at the front. With the engine properly situated in the chassis, a basic, stock rear sump oil pan clears the center link easily. But with the engine there, there is no place on the chassis to cleanly grab the side mounts on the block. Trust me, I tried. It just lands in a bad spot.
    IMG_4564.jpg

    The Olds used a single front mount, so I thought the best route here would be to use front mounts as well. I started with 57 Chevy motor mounts I bought from Danchuk. Those were then modified to close the large hole for the factory cushion and redrill it for a 7/16' bolt, and also notch/clearance the mounts for the large balancer the 350 uses (as opposed to the smaller balancer on the 283). I had to raise the level of the crossmember in the front where the left side mount was to make it symmetric to the right side, the factory contour is different from side to side.
    IMG_4489.jpg
    IMG_4563.jpg

    I used a combination of turned down hockey pucks and large rubber stoppers as cushions.

    As you may have gathered, there is no space for a mechanical fuel pump. That said, I run electric pumps in all my old cars so that was no factor. I just blocked it off.

    The belt drive layout also posed some issues that needed to be rectified. Here were my factors to deal with;
    -The car has air conditioning and the a/c compressor needs to be on the right side
    -I did not want "tall" accessory drive that positioned either the compressor or alternator on top of the engine
    -I wanted a low, wide belt drive that didn't obstruct the appearance of the top of the engine
    -The position of the components could not be too wide since when the car is dropped out, the upper control arms tuck in tighter in the engine compartment.

    I wound up using a Bill's Hot Rod Bracket for the a/c compressor. REALLY nice part and well worth the money. I used what is a basic Spectre 3 piece alternator mount, and used a nice specialty Sagninaw PS pump mount from Danchuk. That mount was designed for 57 Chevys, that incorporates the PS pump mount into the left motor mount. That's pictured above. I notched the chassis for the pump itself, and later to accommodate the lines, and it cleaned up the install completely. IMG_4491.jpg

    If the car did not have a/c, I would have simply installed the PS pump higher, about where the alternator is now, and moved the alternator to the passenger side. This would have also negated the notch in the chassis. But I wanted all of it so that was the solution.

    Getting back to the engine mounts, here's a pic of the rear trans crossmember in place. I did not modify the floors for the 700R4, except for a little in front where I had to "massage" the floor a bit with a ball pein hammer to clear the servo cover. No big deal. But no surgery under the stock floors and trans tunnel otherwise.

    IMG_6275.jpg

    It wasn't kosher to me to have only front mounts and a rear mount, with nothing supporting the middle of the drivetrain, and the engine mounts close the crank centerline. I wanted more lateral stability. Even though it's not an optimal set up, I elected to use a mid-mount as well. I used these Howe style mounts I got from Speedway, that needed to be milled a bit to fit on the outside of the transmission case.
    3611_800x.jpg

    IMG_6278.jpg

    You can also see here a gusseted "L"bracket I made for each side. I turned some threaded inserts and welded them in flush to the chassis, so they're removable as well. That's also the Lokar column shift adapter running through that last pic that we were previously discussing.
    IMG_6276.jpg
    IMG_6274.jpg

    Headers are basic Speedway stainless block huggers.

    Anyway, my new PS pump pulley was delayed but finally came in tonight. Will get out there tomorrow and put that back together, and give it a quick cleaning from the mess that caused.
     
  18. aussie57wag
    Joined: Jul 13, 2011
    Posts: 671

    aussie57wag
    Member
    from australia

    Great looking car. Shame you couldn't afford to keep and rebuild the olds motor and fit a modern overdrive trans to that. It was a lot of work to down grade the running gear to a regular, generic budget sbc like every other cheaply built modified car. Maybe when your a bit more financial you can upgrade back to the olds motor.
     
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  19. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    Ahhh strong words on the internet as usual. How nice it must be to say something like that when there is no danger of getting your teeth knocked out.

    Let me make something very clear. It's not that I can't afford it. Trust me. I can. But I won't and can't justify spending an EXTRA $10,000 on a drivetrain that basically nobody even sees because I show the car with the hood down. That $10,000 is half of the down payment on another investment property or some other venture. I'm totally good spending money. But I'm not OK wasting it. And FWIW, while I'd even agree with you that the SBC is a downgrade in "cool" factor, the fact of the matter is that it's superior in virtually every other objective metric. So in all reality, putting an Olds engine back in it, wouldn't be an upgrade at all. That's a fact.

    And while many other builds may appear cheap (regardless of running gear), I think it's pretty obvious here that great time and attention to detail was taken for a high-quality, professional install that is as functional as it is aesthetically pleasing. If your take from this build is that it's cheap merely because of the choice of engine, then you're exactly the type of person who's opinion means absolutely nothing.
     
  20. ratreo
    Joined: Jan 24, 2010
    Posts: 76

    ratreo
    Member

    “This project has certainly not been without it's hiccups.”


    Beautiful car. I thought that I was the only one that seemed mechanically cursed. The engine that came with the 29 Model A pickup that I built must have been stored standing up on the alum front cover by the previous owner. When I finally got the engine running after mockup the water pump leaked like a sieve. I pulled the front of that engine apart and put it back together 7 times trying various things to correct the problems. New gaskets, new bolts, stop leak tablets, a different water pump. Of course you have to drain everything each time and pull the hood, the radiator and everything else from the front of the car then put it all back together. Each time…

    I finally gave up, put a drip pan under the truck and let it drip

    You did a beautiful job, you should be proud of how it came out
     
  21. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    That's a nightmare. I get it man, some cars just seem like they there is a black cloud over them. But you persevere, and you don't let the inanimate object defeat you. We had a similar issue with a Y block years ago. Had to figure out the hard way that the threads are tapered on the intake bolts. Would weep just enough coolant to drive us insane, pulled the head off like 3 times. We laugh about it now but it wasn't funny at the time.

    Thanks for the kind words.
     
  22. I catch hell for the SBC in my Ford, but I use what I have around and this engine had all the brackets and accessories. I used an early Nova pan but had some fab work to do, nothing major. Now if I could find a front-sump 396/454 front-sump pan...

    Real hot rodders use what they have, period. I could have gone the 429/460 Ford route but no donors were to be found. It would have tacked 6 months and another $5000 onto the build. I found a BOSS 351, but it was missing everything including NO main bearing caps.

    Finding a suitable 394 would be no easy task and parts are expensive. Then there is that automatic transmission quandry. These are not cheap either and a swap to something newer is not a bad idea.
     
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  23. I've hit lots of brick walls on my Ford build. Sometimes I had to close the garage door for a week and think over my options. It took us 3 weeks to get the hydraulic clutch to work well. I had a pile of machined parts that were failures.
     
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  24. Wow….I would have never guessed it was that involved to drop that motor in there, really nice work and your ingenuity is top notch…I figure it’s a GM…shouldn’t be a big deal..that car will be such a nice “go anywhere” car.. aside from the beautiful exterior, I wouldn’t worry about driving it anywhere..solid drivetrain, AC, power steering, good breaks, underside all rhino lined…I keep coming back to this thread to see what else you’ve done..
     
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  25. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    Quick story on walking away. When I blew the motor being young and dumb n my 57 Ford years ago, I went out and sourced a "good used" short block 383 Mopar to replace the one I broke (which was actually a mock up engine filled with metal shavings, but it turned and was $300, soooo....) . I pulled the bad engine and built one good engine out of the two of them. Put it in the car, and could not get it to run right for the life of me. I thought it was a vacuum leak, intake on and off 3 times, distributor, carb.... nothing worked. It would keep backfiring through he carb. But the timing looked right. I got so fed up I parked the car for a year and a half and didn't look at it. When I got accepted to law school, I told myself I need to fix this before I go or I'm never going to get around to it. A buddy made an astute observation, "what if TDC on the balancer isn't TDC at the piston?" I rushed home, pulled the valve cover and #1 plug, rotated the motor over onto the compression stroke, watched my intake valve shut, and with a screw driver in the spark plug hole felt for TDC. When I hit it, I looked down at the mark on the balancer... 25 degrees retarded. The damn balancer had spun and gave me a wrong reference point. I took a silver sharpie, marked TDC on the balancer. The engine fired right up, I advanced the distributor until it started to break up, backed it off a couple degrees, locked it down, and it's run fine for the last 15 years. Sometimes you really do just need to walk away for a while.
     
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  26. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 4,860

    Rand Man
    Member

    I love that gold paint.
     
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  27. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 7,175

    Gotgas
    Member
    from DFW USA

    I looked at your posting history, and your ratio of constructive technical advice to skint-knee, crybaby bitching about how other people build and enjoy their cars is quite low.
     
  28. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 2,318

    twenty8
    Member

    I would suggest you check @57JoeFoMoPar 's profile page to see what he does for a living......;)
     
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  29. wicarnut
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 9,052

    wicarnut
    Member

    Nice work, Kool car !
     
    Stogy likes this.
  30. Loooong and loooow. Looks great! Love the color!
     
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