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Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by need louvers ?, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Cool Steve! You just put down verbatim what I would have written if anybody had requested more info! I turned down a very high profile and profitable wiring job here earlier this year because the owner specified soldered connections. I flat won't do them for all the reasons you state above. Same with the crimping tool you state. All the connections on this car were done with either a side cutters or the football shaped crimper you mentioned before, are all less than one year old and failing. The open yellow, blue, or red, insulators don't actually insulate ANYTHING or seal the joint in any way shape or form. That's why the double shrink tube as well as the support. I do stuff to last.

    I sure hope you didn't read into my last post somehow that I soldered all my connections....
     
  2. Chip, I assume the tank is aluminum? If so, send me your mailing address - I have a cool cap made from a real, forged knockoff - I had a machinist buddy bore and thread 4 of these and machine matching bungs. He went a bit overboard, milling out some slots in the spinners that I'm not crazy about so it still needs a bit of work - some die grinder time and a quick polish and you'll need a proper fitting o-ring but...

    Steve
     

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  3. I've been in the aerospace world for 33 years (9 years US Air Force, 24 years on the Defense Industry) as an electronics tech, and I have wired many an aircraft and automobile. I agree with your statement 1000%.

    I even go a little further and refuse to use any of the plastic insulated crimps you see in the auto parts stores. I don't like the stiffness of the plastic, and I don't like the composition of the metal. I'm a firm believer in spending a little extra and buying quality contacts and lugs from a reputable vendor like Raychem, T&B, Cannon, or others. I also agree with you on the crimp tools. At a minimum, if you're going to use the auto parts store lugs, at least use a quality crimper. When a loss of continuity happens in a harness 90% of the time is because the wire pulled out of the contact. The football shaped dies don't provide enough force or crimp area to provide a quality connection.

    To many, auto wiring is Voodoo Science, and lots of guys are very intimitated by it. Quality connections and proper harness routing can eliminate almost every anomaly that'll leave you stranded in the middle of BFE.
     
  4. No, I didn't see any solder.... ;)

    This is a bee in my bonnet; I'm a retired electrician and have seen probably every type of failed connection you can imagine plus some over the course of my career. And the amount of wrong/poor information out there on vehicle wiring is mind-boggling, and a lot of it is put out by so-called 'experts'. Wire ampacity ratings that will almost guarantee a fire under the right conditions, under-rated switches and relays, poor termination practices, the list can go on... It's a miracle more rewired cars don't burn up.
     
  5. While I'll agree that the parts-house terminals aren't the best, they can be 'acceptable' IF you cut off the plastic insulating sleeve and use the right crimper. But even the 'name-brand' terminals are still usually made of tinned copper and not quite equal to OEM brass. But the OEM types are very hard to find in small quantities. Almost none of the aftermarket harness vendors use brass terminals that I've seen.

    I've gone to Deutsch connectors where I can. Expensive, but excellent reliability as long as you size them right and you can 'break' your harness into pieces, making troubleshooting much easier. Plus they're easy to disassemble if you need to change something.
     
  6. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    I am very happy about this subject coming up here. I have a tendency to get pretty anal about things like wiring, and when someone asks the correct way to do something, I see their eyes glaze over half way through my explanation...

    The guy that wired this car was one of those. He's a good mechanic, and understands Kinda how electricity works, but he asked me to show him proper crimping and stuff before he embarked o this job. I even loaned him my crimpers, and he did just the opposite of what I told him to do...
     
  7. LOL! Yeah, you can talk until you're blue in the face and they'll still hash it together....

    For most people electricity is 'FM' (frickin' magic) and if whatever they're wiring works when they're done, it's good. But it's not rocket science, armed with some basic knowledge, the right tools, and some pre-planning anybody can turn out a safe, reliable wiring harness. Maybe I'll invest some time and put up a 'Wiring 101' post laying out what you need to know....
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  8. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,792

    tfeverfred
    Member

    Related to this guy?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Your picture didn't show Fred.
     
  10. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    I have to back pedal a bit again and make note that the guys that put this car together are good friends of mine. I feel bad trashing them here on the forum as I have been, but damn guys, I tried to point you the right direction every time you asked! Fortunately neither are here on the forum, but it still bugs me kinda talking behind their backs. I have always for the most part unless asked, have been of the mind "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".
     
  11. Yeah, but that's little solace when the wiring catches fire miles from home...

    I'm like you; very anal about wiring. I've seen too many disasters over the years due to lack of knowledge, poor methods or cut corners.
     
  12. llonning
    Joined: Nov 17, 2007
    Posts: 679

    llonning
    Member

    That was not as bad a situation as I had on a HD 45. Guy used wire nuts through out the entire system. Long since repaired.

    Len
     
  13. There is a lot of truth in the above posts. I have found on my crimpers the very last position before the jaws has a tit that will penetrate and crush the connector and provide a very good crimp.
    I have been in electronics for 45 years, 20 Military and 25 civilian working for the Military. I have always used solder less connectors both at work and at home.
     
  14. billsill45
    Joined: Jul 15, 2009
    Posts: 784

    billsill45
    Member
    from SoCal

    Please do. Many of us (especially me) know just enough to be dangerous. Knowledge is a good thing....
     
  15. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    I'm going to play "devils advocate" here. Somebody has to.
    I'm sure you above are "trained professionals" and know exactly which wire ends go with each gauge wire and exactly which slot in your professional tool to use to crimp each wire. But for those who are not professionals (and I have the tool you are talking about and have crimped wires that did slip out) I say it is not a death wish to drop a spot of solder on a wire end you are not sure of. And I am the guy that will say it. I have never had a wire break or come loose that I have soldered, but I have had a few come out that were just crimped.
     
  16. 1arock
    Joined: Sep 24, 2009
    Posts: 124

    1arock
    Member

    . I have never had a wire break or come loose that I have soldered, but I have had a few come out that were just crimped.
    X2
     
  17. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Yah, soldering has been done for years, and at one time was the standard of what we do. But I'll tell ya what I have had happen with soldered joints over the years. Back when I was being taught that's the way to get it done. Over a short period of time, with a soldered joint I have had the wire's insulation fail just beyond the joint. I would guess this was from flux reacting to the material the insulation was made of. It caused a pretty nasty melt down one night many years ago on one of my cars that made me really study the subject and learn about proper crimping techniques
     
  18. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    A week or two ago we were talking about '26-'27 cars as T-Buckets. I forgot my all time favorite in the mix. From the Hot Rod 1962 annual.
     

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  19. If the wire came out, it wasn't crimped right, end of story. In a properly-done crimp, the crimp joint will be stronger than even the wire; the wire will break first.
     
  20. mustang9093
    Joined: Dec 23, 2008
    Posts: 87

    mustang9093
    Member
    from Indiana

    The 26-27 T looks like it would have a lot more foot room in the cowl. I like to drive with both feet, little room on the left of the steering col. for a pedal. My new T has a bubble on the left cowl for more foot room. just enough room for my #12 boots and not to big as to look foolish.
     

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  21. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Damn gang, I'm about to eat worms with this carb! If I couldn't see what was happening with my own eyes I would be trying to "fix" every other part on this car trying to make stuff function.

    Todays round included a pair of known good condition floats (precisely set to 3/8" height, 1" drop) , a quick running study of the needle pistons to make sure they were functioning, yet another blow through of the idle circuit, dropping my pressure regulator down to 3lbs, and yet another tantrum and more wrench throwing. My neighbor thinks I'm loosing my mind and seeing ghosts or something and came over to actually check on me. No matter what I do, the booster ring on the drivers side of this carb drips just like a faucet with a bad washer.

    Funny thing though, I do have a shut off petcock on the tank, and I shut it off when I took the fuel line loose, and forgot to turn it back on when I fired it up. For a very short time before it ran out of fuel, it sat and idled like silk. Makes me almost think that I should drop the float height just a shade more... I'm at 3/8" already when recommended height is 7/16". Watcha think?
     
  22. mustang9093
    Joined: Dec 23, 2008
    Posts: 87

    mustang9093
    Member
    from Indiana

    Attached the steel bubble to the tub with 2 part panel bond from my paint supplier. glued and screwed in place for 24 hrs, removed the screws and whacked it with a rubber mallet to test the bond. normal body work and paint to finish.
     
  23. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    Chip

    Not sure if I should mention this again but did you read the first paragraph of this post? You never mentioned it. It was a real problem with my roadster when I had a tank that fed through the bottom.

    Gary
     
  24. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I am in the "fm" category. So yes, a "wiring 101" post would be good.
     
  25. Chip
    A bit of advice from an old guy. Be very careful about throwing tools. Many Many years ago after cleaning my Roadsters undercarriage, It was completely chrome plated. I took it for a spin and just as I pulled in the driveway the radiator split a seam and covered my freshly polished undercarriage with antifreeze!!!! I was sooooooooo pissed I grabbed the first thing I saw, a 7/8s open/boxend wrench and threw it against the wall of the garage. I'll be damned if it did not fly right back and hit me between the eyes!!!! Knocked me out cold!!! Now when I think of doing that right about when I am ready to throw it this image of me out cold on the floor passes through my vision and I calmly set down what ever I was going to throw!!
     
  26. Koz
    Joined: May 5, 2008
    Posts: 2,320

    Koz
    Member

    I really like the way you steel framed the floor etc., This makes a great way to stiffen things up. I seems a lot of guys are afraid to stuff a bucket with a steel frame but it's done on other glass cars all the time with great success. Lookin' good there!

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2060299&d=1382659394
     
  27. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Easy way to check this, drain the tank till its nearly empty. If the problem goes away, BINGO. Gary could be on to something here.
     
  28. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member


    Sorry Gary, I didn't mean to gloss over your post. It isn't a problem at rest on this car, and I can't see it being a problem at speed. Either a needle and seat is seating or it's not... Kinda. I'm not really sure how to check for what you found. Any ideas how you diagnosed your deal?
     
  29. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,283

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, Steve;

    "the amount of wrong/poor information out there on vehicle wiring is mind-boggling, and a lot of it is put out by so-called 'experts'. Wire ampacity ratings that will almost guarantee a fire under the right conditions, under-rated switches and relays, poor termination practices, the list can go on... It's a miracle more rewired cars don't burn up. &, Maybe I'll invest some time and put up a 'Wiring 101' post laying out what you need to know...."

    I'd like to see a *good* expose' on wiring. I don't find it hard or a pita, although I'm not fond of tracing sometimes... Anyways, I agree w/you on your comments. The best terminals I found years ago were tin-plated copper, but had to get those (wanted them in bulk) from an electrical warehouse - & they're almost gone now. Some of the names you mentioned I've not heard of, will look for them. I use weather-pacs @ work a lot, & like them. I don't have many fail, but I've fixed a lot of them that weren't done right - some from the factory (city-type buses).

    What I'd like to see, is a good "cheat sheet" of info/knowhow you've aquired over the years
    on wire size & ampacity ratings, sw ratings, etc.

    On rare occasion I've had to solder wires, &/or terminals, but always use the glue-type shrink wrap for any terminal/splice I use - w/the exception of a weather-pac terminal.

    Hey, Chip;

    Since you've fixed the wiring issues, what's left for "excitement" when you go for a spin now? :D .

    Marcus...
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  30. woodbutcher
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 3,232

    woodbutcher
    Member

    :( Uhhhhhhhh Louvers.Just for shits and giggles.Have you checked REAL close to be sure that there are not any very small cracks anywhere?Use a good magnifying glass.BTDT.:eek:
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
     

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