Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical The 283 that wouldn't run right

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by thompsonwayne1, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. thompsonwayne1
    Joined: Nov 6, 2013
    Posts: 88

    thompsonwayne1
    Member

    Got my overhaul book, got the engine apart, cam was flat on one lobe. Rented a ridge reamer and got the ridges out of the cylinders, they weren't too bad. pistons out and started to hone the glaze off the cylinder walls with the type of hone that has 3 stones.Nowhere did anyone say how long to hone the cylinders. It seemed to take less than 30 seconds per cylinder to get rid of the glaze. Is that all the time you need to do it?
    And if the pistons and bearings are other than standard size won't they be marked as such? Can't seem to find any markings on them. I don't have any micrometers. And, can I change the main bearings while the crank is still in the engine? (engine is still in the car)
    Thanks guys
     
  2. jimcolwell
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 474

    jimcolwell
    Member
    from Amarillo

    1. Go to Harbor Freight and buy a cheap cherry picker
    2. Pull the block and completely disassemble it
    3. Take the block and crank to a local machine shop and have them tell you if it has been bored and the crank ground. They may need to bore the block and grind the crank.
    4. Disassemble the heads and check the valve seating and stem slop.
    5. Check pricing on a new crate engine. (1600.00)
    6. Now you are ready to make your decision.

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  3. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,666

    squirrel
    Member

    if there's a ridge, that needed to be reamed, then the block needs to be bored for the overhaul to last a long time. The ridge is from the rings wearing the bore just below the top of the bore, resulting in taper in the bore.

    You can do it right and spend a lot of money, or you can do just what it takes to get it running again. If you can't afford to do it right, and remove the engine, etc, you can indeed change the bearings with the crank in the engine, in the car. Make sure to mark the caps so they go back on where they came from, hopefully you already did the rod caps!

    Oversize pistons are stamped on top (usually) with the oversize, such as 030 or something. Bearings are stamped on the backside with the undersize, such as 010 or something. If there are no size marks, and the engine looks like it's been together a long long time, then it's probably still standard.

    you'll want to check the bearing clearances on at least one rod, and one main bearing with plastigage before you put it all back together.

    Cleaning the honing residue out will be fun, make sure you get all the grit out!

    It's neat to see someone doing a good old fashioned in car engine overhaul these days...hope it work ok when you're done! but don't expect it to last more than 10-20k miles.
     
    joel likes this.
  4. 3stone hone isn't the best for an overhaul, if the cylinders are a bit swoopy the 3 stone try's to straighten them out before it breaks the glaze. Not horrible to use a 3 stone but a ball hone will follow the cylinder as it is and just break the glaze. It doesn't take very long at all and there are several ways that work well.

    Changing a crank and bearings on your back with engine block in the car is possible but I wouldn't even think about trying.
     
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. thompsonwayne1
    Joined: Nov 6, 2013
    Posts: 88

    thompsonwayne1
    Member

    Because of my type and size of " garage" and it's location and accesibility it's best that I overhaul the engine in the car. I know crate engines are cheap, but getting one in here and swapping it out is super trouble if not downright impossible
     
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,666

    squirrel
    Member

    And it's traditional.... (just to shut up the naysayers) :)
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  7. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 3,839

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    I bet there were many an engine overhauled in the car way back yonder. Probably laying on a dirt or gravel floor, too. Not the best way to do it for sure, but you do what you have to do!
     
  8. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,666

    squirrel
    Member

    when I got my 57 suburban in 1998, I took out the 235. Several years later my son and I took it apart. It was obvious the block had never been out of the truck, but it was also obvious that it had been worked on more than once. One of the rods had been replaced, and it required a .060 bore to clean up the taper in the Standard size bores! yes, it had a rod knock.
     
  9. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    Traditional would be if you tied a bunch of rope around the rafters in your garage and hoisted that bad boy out. Followed by a proper rebuild. Thats how I pulled my first engine. Safe? Probably not. I bought a hoist after that.
     
  10. thompsonwayne1
    Joined: Nov 6, 2013
    Posts: 88

    thompsonwayne1
    Member

    My Dad who was a real " waste not, want not " kind of person overhauled the engine in his 1953 Plymouth in our garage at least twice, maybe 3 times. He was an aircraft mechanic and when the car needed an overhaul he would take vacation days and do it. Rings, bearings, and grind the valves by hand. He had that car forever. His brothers always kidded him that it was going to fall apart from metal fatigue
     
    loudbang and s55mercury66 like this.
  11. I agree with squirrel. Almost. New rings and bearings will probably last 50,000+ miles. They did back in the '50s. And material and oil is much better now.

    Ben
     
  12. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,666

    squirrel
    Member

    I've found that the amount of taper in the cylinders has a lot to do with how long an overhaul lasts. With a lot of taper, the rings are expanding and contracting every time the piston goes up and down, and that wears out the bottom of the ring, and the ring lands.

    ymmv.
     
  13. bgaro
    Joined: Sep 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,189

    bgaro
    Member

    i aint impossible, i did it in a dirt floor 16x20
     
  14. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 14,917

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    We re-ringed a flathead in the car a few years ago. Just like the old days.
     
  15. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 9,866

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Pull a piston. Remove the top ring. Set it in the cylinder, just below the ring ridge. Measure the gap with feeler gauges. (say it's .020"; just for numerical use. It will probably be more like .016", but humor me.)
    Push the ring down approximately 3". Now measure end gap at that location. It will measure less than the original value taken, so subtract the difference.
    As circumference is the avenue of measurement here, multiply the difference by 3. This will give you a very close estimate of the taper in thousandths, diametrically.
    .008" is the maximum taper (diameter) if cast rings are used... .006" or less is preferable.
     
    ClayMart likes this.
  16. I hadn't thought of measuring taper this way o_O, but you sure can't argue with the math. :D And you used the word diametrically. Correctly! ;) Should work fine for this kind of rebuild.

    You'll get the most accurate measurement by making sure the ring is square in the bore. Easy way to do that...? Turn a piston upside down and use it to push the ring down where you want it in the cylinder.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  17. wedjim
    Joined: Jan 1, 2014
    Posts: 420

    wedjim
    Member
    from Kissimmee

    A cheapie Chinese made hoist is $200 or so. And you'll have it for next year when it's needed if you don't do a total rebuild. :)

    I would buy a mic, even a cheap one to get an idea where your at. Home Depot has some for $20. A dial bore gauge is best, but you can "get by," without one.

    Basically using the three stone hone, you'll see a half inch(or more) or so that it doesn't touch under the ridge you cut off. This is where the rings are needed most, during power stroke and where that taper will hurt power and add to blow by the most.

    When time is available but money isn't you do what you have to. But sometimes patience allows it to be done right...so maybe a compromise...think about it a bit.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  18. I've seen engines with both fantastic compression and ridges.

    Ok guys, here's a pet peeve of mine.
    No machinist would ever hone or bore without a torque plate- EVER!
    So why don't they measure cylinders under inspections with a plate too.
    Seems every engine block measure out of spec without a plate and then they write a rebuild.

    Also a ball hone should be used if you are honing for glaze without a torque plate because it will follow the existing cylinder walls
     
  19. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,666

    squirrel
    Member

    uh...yeah....sure.
     
    JohnEvans likes this.
  20. Maybe I should have added "that I know of "

    Apparently you know some who do bore and finish hone without a torque plate
     
  21. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,666

    squirrel
    Member

    None of mine ever got the torque plate treatment....EVER!

    I wonder how they even run?
     
  22. it's no secret the torquing the head bolts distorts the cylinder walls and why torque plates are used
    Maybe taper and a bit of variance isn't as big of a big issue

    My point is something other than this is becoming

    Why use a plate to finish hone but don't use one to check and inspect. That's the issue. Since you don't use a plate then possibly some basic logic pulled from your background might work
     
  23. jimcolwell
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 474

    jimcolwell
    Member
    from Amarillo

    Don't replace the rings without resurfacing the valves and installing valve stem seals. It's a very good idea to check the cylinders with an old ring and feelers gauge. You are now bordering on blueprints the engine. Also check your bearings with plastigauge.

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  24. jimcolwell
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 474

    jimcolwell
    Member
    from Amarillo

    I hate spell check!

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  25. thompsonwayne1
    Joined: Nov 6, 2013
    Posts: 88

    thompsonwayne1
    Member

    Took the heads to an engine rebuilding shop. What a place, like a trip back in time, every old machine tool you can think of, and the 1950's garage smell. The "head" man told me the engine had been sitting a long time at some point in its life. Rusty exhaust valves, and all the oil gunk in the combustion chambers was from bad seals and maybe guides. Quoted me $350 to $400 to completly go through the heads and also install hardened seats. He looked at a few pistons and rods I had with me and told me they were stock bore pistons and standard size rod bearings. Said pistons and bearings looked good. I'll install new rings and rod bearings. He told me to take one of the middle main caps off and look at the bearing. Do the drag a penny trick and if all looks good just put it back together and leave the mains alone. He gave me a big talk about a zinc additive for the oil to prevent cams from going flat. Said modern oils have been changed to work with catalytic converters.
     
  26. bgaro
    Joined: Sep 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,189

    bgaro
    Member

    why not do the mains it's cheap enough...and yes zinc is good stuff.
     
  27. joel
    Joined: Oct 10, 2009
    Posts: 1,565

    joel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    An import dial bore gage is $60 to $70 and very useful. you can check main bearing bores , rod big ends along with cylinder bores. Lisle sells a rigid hone that will remove material from cylinders and remove taper and is run off a 1/2 in drill. If you could find +.020 pistons and patience, you could do a decent rebuild in the car.
     
  28. models916
    Joined: Apr 19, 2012
    Posts: 380

    models916
    Member

    Those old 283 castings are NOT the lightweights of today. Torque plate makes little or no difference to them. Set the ring gap at the tightest spot on each cylinder so you don't butt them when hot. Oil pan should come off with the crank turned in the right position. May have to lift it a little to clear a cross member. Do one bearing at a time. Use cheap Hastings or Federal Mogul rings in it. You'll be alright.
     
  29. 3wLarry
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 12,804

    3wLarry
    Member Emeritus
    from Owasso, Ok

    never heard of the "drag a penny trick"...'splain Lucy.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  30. Penny is soft but has a pretty good edge. Drag a penny along the journals and feel for irregularities. Similar to the fingernail trick.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.