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Technical Tell me WHY this is going to kill me. UPDATE** Not going to die.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by flamedabone, Dec 2, 2023.

  1. The only thing that stands out to me is it appears the steering arm is below the scrub line, what happens if you have a front flat at speed? HRP
     
  2. Tetanus
    Joined: May 20, 2007
    Posts: 270

    Tetanus
    Member

    1935ply post nailed it
     
    Ned Ludd likes this.
  3. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 8,693

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    If the box is ahead of the axle and the arm reversed it wont steer backwards. This is what I do on most builds where headers interfere. Moving the box ahead of the axle and reversing the pitman arm gives lots of clearance for the box and headers.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,315

    Fordors
    Member

    There is no free lunch, now won’t you have to correct the Ackerman?
     
    deathrowdave and jimmy six like this.
  5. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 5,128

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    That's not being a rebel ,that's being oblivious to reason !
     
    cactus1 likes this.
  6. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 5,128

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Why would that effect Ackerman , tie rod & steering arms aren't changed ?
     
    Ned Ludd likes this.
  7. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,306

    alchemy
    Member

    That won’t be very pretty hanging below his 34 grille.
     
  8. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,726

    BJR
    Member

    How can the OP mount the steering box in front of the axle if his steering arms are behind the axle?
     
    Moriarity likes this.
  9. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,315

    Fordors
    Member

    You are correct, upon further review I see the tie rod is to the rear of the spindles.
     
    Just Gary likes this.
  10. Ok!
     
  11. Ken Smith
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 412

    Ken Smith
    Alliance Vendor

    You asked about the geometry of the situation. It would be pretty easy to layout to scale to match what you have. The way I see it, as it turns right, the drag link will be pulling backwards at the same time the steering arm is wanting to go forward. Vice-versa for the other direction. The greater the angle, the greater this effect. As was mentioned; depending on the actual geometry, a full right hand turn could result in the steering arm and drag link being in line, trying to go over center. 53801208-EB43-4158-AAB2-2CE2CE823202.jpeg
     
  12. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 5,192

    bchctybob
    Member

    ^^^^ And there it is, right there. In a left turn, the rate of motion at the steering arm end changes and the leverage changes at the steering arm making the steering feel strange. The same thing happens on a right turn but the leverage at the steering arm kind of normalizes while the rate of motion at the steering arm changes. Again making the steering feel strange. Worst case scenario, the drag link gets to a position where it could over-center.
    A few cars came through my shop with the drag link not parallel with the tie rod but none were that far off. An inch, maybe two out of line is tolerable but that far out I would have recommended a change.
    The project seems to be coming along nicely, do you have a build thread for it?
     
    HotRodWorks, Pist-n-Broke and twenty8 like this.
  13. As mentioned, it is possible to get to an over center between the arm and rod. That I suppose can be eliminated by a properly positioned turn stop on each side. Not defending what is there, just saying.
     
    flthd31 and HotRodWorks like this.
  14. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,128

    ekimneirbo

  15. Just bend an L shaped steering arm

    IMG_5548.jpeg :)
    :)
     
  16. lumpy 63
    Joined: Aug 2, 2010
    Posts: 2,602

    lumpy 63
    Member

    ^^^^^your killing me smalls:D
     
    anthony myrick likes this.
  17. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 6,653

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Not that far from reality. I had a CJ5 one time that had a steering box change of some sort. The Pittman arm was way short, so they bent the drag link into a sorta lazy backwards"Z" shape. Both ends were parallel and level, it just curved in the middle to make up the difference in space. Never drove it on the road, so I can't say how it did at highway speeds, but it worked fine off road woods riding.....
     
    anthony myrick likes this.
  18. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 2,286

    twenty8
    Member

    Half of us are laughing, but I can hear the other half thinking "Mmmm, that might just work....":confused:o_O
     
    Nostrebor, Happydaze, Dan Hay and 7 others like this.
  19. The simple answer is "because."

    Memories of childhood conversations.
    "Why can't I do that?"
    "Because."
    "Because why?"
    "Just because."
     
  20. I wonder if this is why Nascar only turns Left? A minor mistake and they chose not to change it.
     
    CSPIDY and patsurf like this.
  21. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 8,693

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    No. Ackerman has nothing to do with pitman arm direction, or the drag link. My tiee rod is still in the rear normal location, and it's what affects Ackerman angles.
     
  22. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 8,693

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    Just like anyone does. You move the steering box and drag link to the front side, and leave the tie rod at the rear. It only requires a second arm on the off side spindle to attach the drag link to. Done this many times, and I like it much better than behind the axle.
     
    patsurf likes this.
  23. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,315

    Fordors
    Member

    What confused me was when I looked at the photo you posted I focused on the flat steel, bolt on arm thinking you had put the tie rod in front. Had I looked to the left of the tarp in the photo I would have seen the tie rod. But regardless, is that a viable solution for a transverse sprung ‘32 frame like the OP is building?
     
  24. Dreddybear
    Joined: Mar 31, 2007
    Posts: 6,081

    Dreddybear
    Member

    I have the same setup. In order to keep the 40 box where I want it and run the caddy engine where I want it, This is the angle on my coupe. It works not only great, but AWESOME. My coupe will out corner a damn Porsche and is super easy to drive. No bump steer or anything. 10 years now and I hammer the piss out of this car when I drive.
    @flamedabone
    IMG_0095.jpeg

    wlt.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2023
  25. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 8,693

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    I see no reason the transverse spring would change whether the wheels could be moved from the front side of the axle, and not the rear? I did this for a friend's '35 Plymouth that was a chrome tube axle, (once transverse spring) that I converted to coilovers.
    The drag link and steering box up front still gets things away from the engine and the headers, and will work. The only issue would be if his car was open fenders and he didn't like seeing the steering box out front.
     
  26. flamedabone
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 5,419

    flamedabone
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    Nope, not possible. That should have killed you 10 years ago! ;)

    In the end, it most likely would have been fine, but I would have hated to change it after the car was done. I have some new U-bends, I'm gonna move the box and build a new header this weekend. Not a huge deal.

    Thanks, guys.

    -Abone.
     
  27. If you draw a line from the centerline of the kingpin on the right side, through the tie rod end, another line through both tie rod ends, and then another line through both the sector shaft end of the pitman arm and the tie rod end of the pitman arm... you'll see your working angles. Basically the spindle is a first class lever that is actuated by a rod. The most efficient action on a first class lever by the rod is 90 degrees. As the lever moves about the fulcrum (the king pin), this working angle gets greater or lesser. As this angle approaches 180 degrees, it becomes less efficient... i.e. requires more effort and produces less movement.
    If it approaches 180 degrees it may experience an "over center" situation... by actually going over center, or not actually going over center. (I've seen this on throttle linkages before. Yikes!)

    So there's that.

    Sam
     
  28. patsurf
    Joined: Jan 18, 2018
    Posts: 1,001

    patsurf

    nice concise explanation
     
    2OLD2FAST likes this.
  29. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 2,286

    twenty8
    Member

    See the bit I have highlited at the beginning.
    The whole thing is a very good guide for everyone........;)
     

    Attached Files:

    Cgrgrspt10 likes this.
  30. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,315

    Fordors
    Member

    My comment had nothing to do with a steering box in front of the axle not working. I don’t think there would be enough clearance for the extended shaft to pass through the axle/spring area of the typical dropped axle ‘32 frame like the OP is using and the inward taper of the frame horn is a factor too, let alone being odd looking as you said. For sure your solution works, but not for the OP’s car.
     

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