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Technical Tech Week_False Riveting Alliance or other tags for holeless Installation

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Stogy, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    This tech thread is about false riveting your alliance tag so you can attach to your ride with adhesive without holes through attach location.


    You will have to invest modestly in things to do this job


    I learned this technique in aviation. It is a method of plugging holes in aluminum with add material (rivet). Depending on area for repair rivet can be flush on both sides or Dome (Protruding head) or Countersunk head and flush on one side etc.


    In the case of the Tag we will use a Dome head 'A' hardness rivet.


    First hole size must be determined to prepare correct rivet. Problem for me is I don’t know hole size in the Tag (hasn't got here yet). My guess is #30. Check hole with #30 drill bit to determine size. Drill should be very close to hole size and not to sloppy.


    Here are holes sizes for standard rivets;


    1) #40 (.098”) hole for 3/32” rivet


    2) #30 (.1285”) hole for 1/8” rivet

    3) #20 (.161”) hole for 5/32” rivet

    So a great place to get rivets and tools for this is Aircraft Sprucehttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/ They sell small amounts for very reasonable cost. You can get the 1/8" squeezer die as well and the 100 degree rose bud (countersink) for touch countersinking. You may of course know of a supplier for such things as there are numerous places catering to RV to light aircraft.


    Rivets may be left with original finish, painted or fine sanded and polished carefully prior to install. Paint may come off during install. Retouch as needed

    Don't worry you can use the excess rivets and tools for many little projects.


    The Pic Series

    What you need.JPG

    The Things You will Need
    Back of Tag (#30) holes.JPG

    The Tag with #30 holes
    Touch countersinking (100 degree).JPG

    Touch countersinking 100 degrees square to surface
    Touch Countersink Detail.JPG

    Touch Countersinking detail
    Sharpie mark cut too (off) line.JPG

    Marking Cut too Line with Sharpie
    Cutting off.JPG

    Cutting rivets to length
    Profile shot after cut and fine file.JPG

    Pre Peening visual
    Add layer of masking tape to die for rivet head protection.JPG

    Protection masking added to snap
    Snap in vise dome head side to snap_die.JPG

    Bringing rivet head to snap (die)
    Rivet head in die with plate at 90 degrees to die.JPG

    Setting Head to die
    moderate pressure downward till riveting done.JPG

    Second View applying moderate downward pressure while peening
    Rivets are 'A' class (soft) and require light blows to peen.
    Do not overepeen...
    After peening (note fill csk only then file_grind carefully of excess).JPG

    After riveting (Note only peen to fill touch countersinks)
    After filing _grinding off excess.JPG


    Carefully File (grind) peen side down to near flush

    Almost done.JPG

    Almost Done
    Done finishing flushness.JPG

    Done adhesive side
    Head side detail.JPG

    Done Head side
    Detail.JPG

    Done Head side (detail 2)
    4 spots of latex caulk and pressed on.JPG

    Attached with 4 spots of latex caulk
    Final view angle 2.JPG

    Applied Tag 1
    Final angle 3.JPG

    Applied Tag 2
    Final angle 4.JPG

    Applied Tag 3


    Thats it everyone...Thanks for looking.

    Stogy
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
    1947knuck, XXL__, catdad49 and 12 others like this.
  2. ol-nobull
    Joined: Oct 16, 2013
    Posts: 1,426

    ol-nobull
    Member

    Great info on this. Jimmie
     
    Stogy likes this.
  3. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,113

    waxhead
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from West Oz

    Nice work, thanks for posting
     
    Stogy likes this.
  4. I still have my bucking bars, from pre 9-11.
     
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  5. That's pretty nice,the only fear I would have is the alliance tag is about the thickness of a beer can,very thin and a couple of whacks with a hammer would bend it big time.

    I can see backing the tag with a piece of aluminum like you did in your tutorial to prevent damage. HRP
     
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  6. unkledaddy
    Joined: Jul 21, 2006
    Posts: 2,864

    unkledaddy
    Member

    I did something similar once with a VIN tag..........epoxied the rivets into the holes, ground the
    protruding rivets off the back on a belt sander and siliconed the tag to the firewall.

    I know, I'm lucky I didn't go to jail for life.
     
  7. Nice job. I once did similar with a data plate but used JB weld because it was on a door and I didn't want the plate to be jarred loose with use.
     
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  8. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,384

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks all for your interest...Will respond to queries when I have more time later...I have here a support graphic I did...
    Hamb_Tag_Mounting.jpg
     
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  10. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,678

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Interesting and ultra-crafty, but I'm not sure I get it. I think I can understand removing the tag later (selling the car and don't want your username on the tag, etc.), but even if you didn't want to fill / spot paint 4 pop rivet-sized holes or put something else on using same holes, how could you pry off a glued on plate / glue blob without damaging the tag itself or marring the paint around or under the plate?

    As a PS, I pop-riveted a HAMB tag on the center console of my truck, but I removed the bottom part with my username. Just the HAMB shows. Gary
     
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  11. hotrod54chevy
    Joined: Nov 7, 2003
    Posts: 1,589

    hotrod54chevy
    Member
    from Ohio

    I'm thinking about getting a Powergen, and this'll work great for "riveting" a Delco-Remy tag on it! Thanks!
     
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  12. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    HRP

    The rivet head actually sits in the die which you can add a layer of masking tape (not aluminum) to to protect the rivet surface. The tag itself does not contact the die and won't unless you hold the tag off angle. This is a precise process which takes practise but it is not to difficult to master. You use ballpeen hammer to peen the rivet which is an 'A' type which is soft (as is the tag I am sure is as well). You do this process very gently as the rivet is soft and only peen it till the touch csk. is filled, then take down excess which should not be a lot. No blacksmith banging here gentle light blows to the rivet to what is termed upsetting it. If you keep banging after touch csk is full yes it could start buckling the tag. It doesn't take much rivet sticking out to fill the touch csk. Maybe .010" to .015". Sorry long winded a bit.

    Your touch csk. depth only has to be deep enough for rivet to expand and lock itself in which is not much.

    When I get my tag I will do this to it and post it good or bad. I think it should be Ok. In aviation 'A' rivets are used in softer material applicatons that would be damaged by harder higher stress rivets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
  13. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    Chucky

    This riveting is a little different in that ballpeen hammer is the bar that applies the upset to the rivet...one thing about these 'A' rivets is they take far less riveting/bucking due to how soft they are. It is amazing how many bars are available. Some are made of tungsten (super dense and heavy metal). Been in aviation many years and have not used tungsten...someday. On a sombre note I was working on leading edges...largely riveting on that day. Will never forget it...stopped our production dead it did.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
  14. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    56don

    Did you glue the rivets in as well. This is definitely blind as well but they could pop out. There are so many adhesives...what to use. I chose latex caulk and put four .250" dia spots on back and stuck it on. Not to much not too little. You don't want to aggressive an adhesive as it could damage plate and or paint during removal.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  15. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    Gary

    It is an option to holes yes, but your right if you destroy the tag and or paint removing it it makes no sense. That is why adhesive choice is important. It must withstand all the elements and of course hold. Sometimes the simple approach works best. Choose a adhesive which stays soft and flexible. I used this gray good quality latex caulk to seal some gaps in the car it was good quality and dried to a gray that matched...I just stuck the tag on with dabs not full face seal. To remove you could get an plastic aviation scraper they make a thin red one that would do the job. Perhaps just a sharp plastic mud scraper. Got to use something thing non marring to surfaces involved. I have not actually done this at all. It is an idea utilizing a aviation technique as we have various unique tags we can attach to our cars. This is just an option as some tags are personal. Super thin tags this would not be feasable for this...perhaps draw the line at .040" thick. I have to unstuck this tag I caulked to my car...Will let it sit for a bit and remove it...
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
  16. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    hotrod54chevy
    You may want to use fire caulking due to heat involved. I would think this would be fine. You can use this technique of riveting on quite thin material. Just apply enough touch csk. so the rivet with peen over to hold itself in. One thing to bear in mind wherever you use this technique make sure surfaces involved are clean and free of oil etc.
     
  17. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hi All
    If you try out this technique. Practice on some similar material. The aviation places usually sell aluminum sheet in various sizes and thickness. Riveting is one of those things that can be utilized in the hobby we are involved in and looks good too.
    Update;
    I used an aviation (plastic) scraper and gently worked 2 corners and it popped off with no distortion to the tag or damage to the paint (note it was definitely attached). Care must be taken however. There is a rule of thumb in aviation to never use anything harder than the material you are working on when working with it to minimize damage to the surfaces. Again when I get my Alliance tag I will perform this method discussed to demonstrate my original intended purpose.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  18. sodbuster
    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 4,946

    sodbuster
    Member
    from Kansas

    Neato'.
     
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  19. Paul B
    Joined: Sep 29, 2007
    Posts: 878

    Paul B
    Member

    instead of caulk or glue on your car surface. I glue a thin magnet to the back of the tag no mess to clean and can be relocated anytime
     
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  20. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That may be a great alternative to caulking. Wind and vibration are the only concerns. You could try this inside the car somewhere to test it for how well it holds. Definatly great for the fridge and toolbox. Great idea Paul B thanks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  21. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,294

    BJR
    Member

    Why not use thin 2 sided tape, like used on modern cars for emblems and moldings?
     
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  22. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You absolutely could...I guess the amount you use is important as removal without damage to the tag is part of the reason for doing this. I was just thinking on the fly and we have available many potential types of adhesive. Another great possibility BJR. Thanks...
    Just to let you guys and gals know I got my tag to day. HRP is right...the tag is quite thin but I am going to apply this riveting method to it tomorrow and get it on the car.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  23. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Update I used a mock Tag for the original submission above. I have since false riveted the Alliance Tag as I recieved it Friday afternoon and applied it to the car and all was successful. I am posting a few photos of my Tag. I wanted to do this on my own tag why? So I could verify it works.

    20151023_213530.jpg
    The Alliance Tag Back Side
    Hole opened to #30 (from 1/8")


    20151023_214108.jpg

    4x touch countersunk


    20151023_214541.jpg

    Rivets, 100 degree six flute countersink


    20151023_221849.jpg

    4x Rivet cut down to length


    20151023_221925.jpg
    Rivet cut down to length & pre-fit to tag


    20151023_222425.jpg

    Rivet set in die for peening

    20151023_222852.jpg

    4x Rivets peened


    20151023_232348.jpg

    Tag clamped to allow rework to upset heads


    20151023_231540.jpg

    Tag clamped to allow Dremmel rework to upset heads


    20151023_232550.jpg

    Rivets upset heads reworked to .002" to.005" high


    20151023_232535.jpg

    Front View


    20151023_233131.jpg

    4 to 6 - 1/4" diameter spots of Caulking / Adhesive


    20151023_234335.jpg

    Its on Yehooo...


    20151023_234658.jpg

    Its on Yehooo...2

    Thanks for your patience.
    Stogy
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  24. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Update...I ended this tech thread with the tag affixed to the firewall. The final chapter to complete this is actually removing for reuse. So I have completed this task successfully with the following pics. Just an observation. The tag after several weeks was really stuck well so use minimal sealant as shown as the more you use the more difficult removal will be increasing chance of damage to your firewall and the tag therefore defeating the purpose.

    False Riveted Tag Removal

    thin_flexible_plastic_rule_end_chamfered_thinner_s.jpg
    Modified thin flexible Plastic Rule
    gently work under tag
    note chamfered end (180 sandpaper or smooth file)


    Removal_process_detail.jpg
    Gently work plastic rule (chamfer up) flat as possible at entry point
    under tag with side to side motion and saw through sealant.
    Painters tape can be applied to protect if desired


    Tag-_after-_removal_Note_small-sealant_footprint.jpg
    Tag top view after very careful removal from firewall
    (note size of sealant spots that anchored tag)


    side_profile_after_removal.jpg
    Tag side profile detail after removal
    (note; tag integrity is maintained)


    Tag_after_sealant_removal_using-_plastic-_rule_s2.jpg
    Sealant gently removed with plastic scraper


    Tag_after_sealant_removal_using-_plastic-_rule_s1.jpg
    Sealant removal view 2

    Cowl-detail_after_removal.jpg
    Firewall detail after removal
    no holes to fill, paint scuff is very minimal
    and Tag is now ready for application elsewhere

    Remember whatever you use for adhesive use only minimal amounts as this is a semi permanent install. Tag thickness is only .018"

    Thanks for looking...
    Thank You HAMB
    Stogy

     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
    1947knuck likes this.
  25. i.rant
    Joined: Nov 23, 2009
    Posts: 2,806

    i.rant
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Illinois
    1. 1940 Ford

    If using the two sided tape fishing line pulled through will easily remove the tag.
     
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  26. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This may work better than the plastic ruler with sealant I used as well. Thanks for the suggestion i.rant
     
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  27. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hi All...Just letting you know I have reapplied the Tag several months ago and it looks great and has acted as well as expected no issues...now what to do with my new Brassy Classy Hamb Tag...;)


    0_20161031_152105.jpg
     
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  28. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,072

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    RS_20180525_170548smlr.jpg
    Quality Update
    Still like the day I installed it...Hamb proud...;)

     
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